New Weapon Damage Analysis

By ak-73, in Deathwatch

Posted at

Shaun said:

Usually full auto is a pretty ineffective way to hit a target due to the recoil. DW kind of takes a perverse view of this and it very rarely makes sense not to use full auto if you have the option to. The only reason I can think of to fire my bolter on anything other than full auto is ammo conservation and a very small change in the odds of a jam.

Move and Fire: If I understand the rules right, you get a -10 penalty without the usual +20 bonus when using full auto while moving. When using Semi-Auto, you don't suffer the -10 so your BS is 10 higher. A vialble option if you suffer penalties of any kind.

Posted at

Erm, just one point: you're always using the Techmarine's armour and overall survivability as an example that "higher rank marines are broken"...

Well, yes, the Techmarine can be absurdly tough at higher ranks, but goddammit that's all he has ! So please, some love for the followers of the Machine Cult, LEAVE THE TECHIES ALONE! ;)

No seriously, outside of them, Marines don't gain that much armour when they level up...

So the point is a bit moot.

Posted at

ak-73 said:

Jodelmarine said:

i am pretty pleased with the rules changes. I would never have written those 20+ pages of house rules if we had those weapon stats right at the beginning.

The reason for the "1W10" is simple: You don't want extremes. W10+9 (+11 with mighty shot) results in no more than 21 pen 4 damage. You won't kill your Nurgle Demon Prince (Toughness 18 Armor 12) with Bolter or Heavy Bolter Fire that way. Neither will you waste the Broodlord or Hive Tyrant with a single Heavy Bolter Volley. There is special Equipment for that - use it gui%C3%B1o.gif

But I do want extremes! But only if a player rolls very well. That's why I use the house rule of re-rolling all 10s on RF. Which btw has become even more viable with reduced dices.

If a Bolter or HB damage roll ends up 10, 10, 4 (Tearing), then I want the player to be able to add 2d10 to damage for that shot. It represents a critically well placed shot. If the rest of the normal hits doesn't do much damage against a Hive Tyrant, I am fine with that.

Jodelmarine said:

Some suggestions:

1. The Combat Shotgun is broken - give it pen 0 like the original. Probably an error.

Most likely. Shotguns are AP - after all.

Jodelmarine said:

2. Leave the Bolters Fire Rate if you don't like it. Or nerv the Plasma Guns Fire Rate. This would result in optional Suppressive Fire and an edge to the plasma rifle in horde combat or against weak opponents. Weapon choice should be made tactically - no weapon should simply be "better".

It actually should but only at the appropriate req cost. Anyway, I'd keep the Bolter ROF.

Jodelmarine said:

3. One magazin Kraken rounds is as costly as some advanced weapons. Thats rubbish - just make the ammo cheaper, that gives the tactical with bolter more options and more versatility. Or state that the Marine has "enough kraken rounds" for the points.

15 is expensive but still a frequent choice for Marines. And for the Bolt Pistol it only costs 8. Tacticals get one clip of ammo free each mission, so no problem there.

Jodelmarine said:

4. Increase Damage on the Meltas, they are broken when compared to plasma. A Plasma Cannon does more Damage (overcharge) with better burst radius and better range than a Multi-Melter.

Melta just needs the original +d10 damage on Short Range, as well as the double Pen. I am actually thinking of this rule for melta:

On Short range melta does:
- 1d10 extra damage and
- doubles AP or halfs enemy AV, whichever is greater.

That way even Land Raider don't feel comfortable in a MMs presence.

Jodelmarine said:

5. Restrict Thunder Hammers and Storm Bolters to Marines wearing Terminator armor. Otherwise all Marines will use them in the mid- to endgame.

Thunder Hammers are OP and need to be scaled down. I'm fine with Storm Bolters becoming a standard choice (instead of the bolter) at higher ranks. Though I suspect combi-meltas remain an alternative. The problem is that melta right now isn't good enough to destroy tanks with one shot.

Jodelmarine said:

6. Deploying/Stowing away Heavy Weapons takes time, Marines wielding them suffer penalties to Agility (dodge less, move slower). This encourages Tacticals to wield Basic weapons and might give the Heavies the right feel back.

Yeah sure, it's a point, a simple solution would be to disallow dodge.

But how do you handle suspensors then?

Jodelmarine said:

7. Nerv those bulkhead shears and breaching augur: I use the old stats (new ones are ok too) but do not add Strength Bonus. You don't want all Marines walking around with these monstrosities, just doesn't feel right.

Or give substantial to-hit penalties. You got a point.

Jodelmarine said:

8. Make those Chapters in RoB better. They genuinely suck when compared to the original ones.

Which suck? Surely not the Crimson Fists, although they could have used full chapter rules. Imperial Fists Solo Mode ability is awesome: unless the enemy fields Tau Railguns, you can take the risk of shooting things out.

Jodelmarine said:

My House Rules:

Melta Quality: +6 AP in short range - but more damage overall (see below)

Assault Quality: You may combine a Full Move with an Attack with Pistols, Flamers, Melta Guns, Ripper Guns and the like, Talents scale accordingly.

Tankbuster: Some Weapons are just better at killing Armor...

Roll Armor: No "auxiliary Toughness" - roll W10 under/equal to the modified armor value as an armor save. That way hits that do penetrate hurt more (not those "1,2,1,1,2,0,0 DMG added together any more" because damage is reduced by armor), you need not roll damage if the save is made (makes for a faster game) and your inquisitor with Best Craftsmanship Powerarmor but only 22 Toughness may survice the day cool.gif Pretty extreme but we got good results.

Stats:

Bolters 2W10+2 Pen 4 S/2/4 or S/3, Hvy Bolter 2W10+5 Pen 5 -/-/10

Assault Cannon 3W10+5 Pen 6 -/-/10 Storm, Unreliable

Plasma 3W10+6 Pen 10, overheats, volatile S/2 or S/-

Melter 4W10+8 Pen 12, Multi Melter better S/-

Lascannon 5W10+10 Pen 14

just to name a few. Probably obsolete with the errata - they could be better balanced.

What do you think of those changes?

What do you make of the Krak missile? It obliterates Terminators but doesn't do much against Rhino Front Armour, doesn't feel right. I feel like we need an Armour Piercing trait. You know in Cyberpunk RPG, AP weapons half the enemy armour. I think this might be necessary here too because of the wide differences in AV from AV 8 of Power Armour to AV 45 to 50 of main battle tanks. Halving it would reduce this wide range significantly, allowing for better callibration of weapon damage.

Let's say Krak missile has such a quality. Then Terminators had AV 7 (let's say +10 soak by marine Toughness), Rhino Front 16. If the missile would do its originalk 4d10+6 on top of it, you'd have 11 damage against and 12 against Rhinos. Not quite precise but much better.

4d10+2 would also do. The many dice give the chance to penetrate and to really do significant damage while the normally damage output should be not too threatening.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Jodelmarine said:

6. Deploying/Stowing away Heavy Weapons takes time, Marines wielding them suffer penalties to Agility (dodge less, move slower). This encourages Tacticals to wield Basic weapons and might give the Heavies the right feel back.

Yeah sure, it's a point, a simple solution would be to disallow dodge.

But how do you handle suspensors then?

Jodelmarine said:

8. Make those Chapters in RoB better. They genuinely suck when compared to the original ones.

Which suck? Surely not the Crimson Fists, although they could have used full chapter rules. Imperial Fists Solo Mode ability is awesome: unless the enemy fields Tau Railguns, you can take the risk of shooting things out.

Jodelmarine said:

My House Rules:

Melta Quality: +6 AP in short range - but more damage overall (see below)

Assault Quality: You may combine a Full Move with an Attack with Pistols, Flamers, Melta Guns, Ripper Guns and the like, Talents scale accordingly.

Tankbuster: Some Weapons are just better at killing Armor...

Roll Armor: No "auxiliary Toughness" - roll W10 under/equal to the modified armor value as an armor save. That way hits that do penetrate hurt more (not those "1,2,1,1,2,0,0 DMG added together any more" because damage is reduced by armor), you need not roll damage if the save is made (makes for a faster game) and your inquisitor with Best Craftsmanship Powerarmor but only 22 Toughness may survice the day cool.gif Pretty extreme but we got good results.

Stats:

Bolters 2W10+2 Pen 4 S/2/4 or S/3, Hvy Bolter 2W10+5 Pen 5 -/-/10

Assault Cannon 3W10+5 Pen 6 -/-/10 Storm, Unreliable

Plasma 3W10+6 Pen 10, overheats, volatile S/2 or S/-

Melter 4W10+8 Pen 12, Multi Melter better S/-

Lascannon 5W10+10 Pen 14

just to name a few. Probably obsolete with the errata - they could be better balanced.

What do you think of those changes?

What do you make of the Krak missile? It obliterates Terminators but doesn't do much against Rhino Front Armour, doesn't feel right. I feel like we need an Armour Piercing trait. You know in Cyberpunk RPG, AP weapons half the enemy armour. I think this might be necessary here too because of the wide differences in AV from AV 8 of Power Armour to AV 45 to 50 of main battle tanks. Halving it would reduce this wide range significantly, allowing for better callibration of weapon damage.

Let's say Krak missile has such a quality. Then Terminators had AV 7 (let's say +10 soak by marine Toughness), Rhino Front 16. If the missile would do its originalk 4d10+6 on top of it, you'd have 11 damage against and 12 against Rhinos. Not quite precise but much better.

4d10+2 would also do. The many dice give the chance to penetrate and to really do significant damage while the normally damage output should be not too threatening.

Alex

Suspensors don't reduce the weapons bulk, it only reduces its weight. A HB on a suspensor is much more manageable, but should get penalties when moving through dense terrain. It won't influence the ability to dodge much since you should get a penalty to dive into cover while portruding a 1 m suspensor mounted heavy weapon.

To the topic of " underpowered RoB Chapters ": They only get 10 Advances to choose from. Most (or every?) Chapters from the core rules get much more, especially when considering the awesome combat talents Stormwarden and Blood Angels get.

Additionaly, many abilities of the Imperial Fists and some Squad Mode Abilities offer greater protection against fear. Totally pointless since SM are immune to fear. I will revamp the IF and other chapters to bring them to a level with the others.

Personally I wanted many new Chapters, complete with Squad Modes and description, not some mediocre tables to "roll your chapter". I hope that FFG will offer something in the future. For my own custom chapters, i use common sense to balance them out. RoB doesn't help really.

Krak Missile: I gave the krak missile 4W10+10 Damage (a little bit less than my Melter Damage) AP 10 (en par with Plasma Penetration) and gave it an additional +2 AP vs. tanks to represent their primary use. They cause 1W10 an 2 pen less than a Lascannon - and that works fine with me since Missile Launchers are cheaper, earlier to get and have the option of using other warheads.

Posted at

Stormast said:

Erm, just one point: you're always using the Techmarine's armour and overall survivability as an example that "higher rank marines are broken"...

Well, yes, the Techmarine can be absurdly tough at higher ranks, but goddammit that's all he has ! So please, some love for the followers of the Machine Cult, LEAVE THE TECHIES ALONE! ;)

No seriously, outside of them, Marines don't gain that much armour when they level up...

So the point is a bit moot.

A player may some day have artificer armor with iron halo with around 50-60% Dodge Chance. You could use a Storm Shield with a 55% safe. Why use Terminator armor that is essentially weaker?

Techmarines are an extreme that, in my opinion, was not meant to be. They took armor monger and flesh is weak from ascension, thought "artificer armor would be nice" and gave it 12 armor. Combined: Too much for my liking. But really, even a starting Character with Toughness 50+ is better off than a Rhino. He can use cover, can dodge, is not that easy to be hit... .

Posted at

Yeah but that's ALL he has!

Don't forget a character (except a bloody Ultramarine, but anyway, doesn't matter) never begins with more than 50 in Toughness.

So let's take the extreme (as you said yourself, it's an extreme, not something you get at your table everyday).

Techmarine, begins with Toughness 50. Gets +20 from advances: 70. Machinator Array: 80. Blood Angel with Frenzy: 90. TB = 18.

Artificer armor, Armour Monger, Flesh is Weak 5 (we're taling about a rank 8 Techmarine here, a real badass!): Armor = 12+2+5 = 19.

So YEAH, he has a 37 damage reduction total...So what? He's more than half machine, and a RANK 8 marine...And still has only one attack (two if he uses his Reaction to attack, so no dodge... ) in melee, and utterly sucks in ranged combat.

I don't call this "wasn't meant to be", I call this "apotheosis for someone who is entirely dedicated to not dying".

Posted at

So you have essentially a near- full conversion borg with the organic body parts made from super-solider gene-seed drabbed in one of the most advanced power armour s to be found. Yeah, that think should be as hard to kill as a tank.

Alex

Posted at

Stormast said:

Yeah but that's ALL he has!

Don't forget a character (except a bloody Ultramarine, but anyway, doesn't matter) never begins with more than 50 in Toughness.

So let's take the extreme (as you said yourself, it's an extreme, not something you get at your table everyday).

Techmarine, begins with Toughness 50. Gets +20 from advances: 70. Machinator Array: 80. Blood Angel with Frenzy: 90. TB = 18.

Artificer armor, Armour Monger, Flesh is Weak 5 (we're taling about a rank 8 Techmarine here, a real badass!): Armor = 12+2+5 = 19.

So YEAH, he has a 37 damage reduction total...So what? He's more than half machine, and a RANK 8 marine...And still has only one attack (two if he uses his Reaction to attack, so no dodge... ) in melee, and utterly sucks in ranged combat.

I don't call this "wasn't meant to be", I call this "apotheosis for someone who is entirely dedicated to not dying".

Stormast said:

Yeah but that's ALL he has!

Don't forget a character (except a bloody Ultramarine, but anyway, doesn't matter) never begins with more than 50 in Toughness.

So let's take the extreme (as you said yourself, it's an extreme, not something you get at your table everyday).

Techmarine, begins with Toughness 50. Gets +20 from advances: 70. Machinator Array: 80. Blood Angel with Frenzy: 90. TB = 18.

Artificer armor, Armour Monger, Flesh is Weak 5 (we're taling about a rank 8 Techmarine here, a real badass!): Armor = 12+2+5 = 19.

So YEAH, he has a 37 damage reduction total...So what? He's more than half machine, and a RANK 8 marine...And still has only one attack (two if he uses his Reaction to attack, so no dodge... ) in melee, and utterly sucks in ranged combat.

I don't call this "wasn't meant to be", I call this "apotheosis for someone who is entirely dedicated to not dying".

All of that...and he can still easily go down in a single round against a lot of the tougher baddies in the system. The Tau Broadside Battlesuit (an Elite-tier opponent) will take him out just as easily as if he were a Rank 1 Apothecary.

Posted at

Brand said:

All of that...and he can still easily go down in a single round against a lot of the tougher baddies in the system. The Tau Broadside Battlesuit (an Elite-tier opponent) will take him out just as easily as if he were a Rank 1 Apothecary.

Just like in DH the overdone Techpriest 'build', complete with people claiming to be invulnerable, until they are fired upon by by a Las Cannon (as an extreme example). Doesn't seem like quite such a good idea to cash in all your agility at that point.

Posted at

Wait, techpriests aren't any good at ranged? What about with conversion beamers?

Posted at

Deinos said:

Wait, techpriests aren't any good at ranged? What about with conversion beamers?

Everyone is "good" at range; some are just a bit better than others. The Techmarine's access to the conversion beamer can make him extraordinarily lethal at longer ranges, especially against larger opponents that give nice bonuses on the attack roll.

The Techmarine has plenty going for him - very tough, a solid fighter, and easily one of the most versatile of the group thanks to technological skills and cybernetics (you likely won't see the Assault Marine hacking a security system). Even the ability to use a Reaction to attack with the servo-arm is very useful - if an enemy doesn't attack him or tries and misses, the Techmarine basically gets a free extra attack. I think any Techmarine worth his salt will have a teammate/NPC teach him Swift Attack as an Elite Advance, at the least, so he'll likely be a very good melee fighter overall.

Posted at

Stormast said:

Erm, just one point: you're always using the Techmarine's armour and overall survivability as an example that "higher rank marines are broken"...

Well, yes, the Techmarine can be absurdly tough at higher ranks, but goddammit that's all he has ! So please, some love for the followers of the Machine Cult, LEAVE THE TECHIES ALONE! ;)

No seriously, outside of them, Marines don't gain that much armour when they level up...

So the point is a bit moot.

I agree with you, but with the more predictable damage rolls (1d10's) we're finding our tech priest, who is rank 5 and the Forge Master, is getting unwoundable by some enemies. I think he's 12 from toughness, 2 from TFIW, 12 from Artificer armour.

Poor dude really really suffers against those disgusting genestealers with preternatural speed. Just not kind at all.

35% dodge chance or his one parry at 40%.

Posted at

Jodelmarine said:

Jodelmarine said:

To the topic of " underpowered RoB Chapters ": They only get 10 Advances to choose from. Most (or every?) Chapters from the core rules get much more, especially when considering the awesome combat talents Stormwarden and Blood Angels get.

"SNIPPED A SECTION OUT HERE"

Personally I wanted many new Chapters, complete with Squad Modes and description, not some mediocre tables to "roll your chapter". I hope that FFG will offer something in the future. For my own custom chapters, i use common sense to balance them out. RoB doesn't help really.

The RoB Chapters did seem weak, although one, Strength of Arms or Master of Arms, offered Two Weapon Wielder BS/WS which gave me a cool idea for a techpriest.

Heavy Bolter, Two Servo Arms (upgrade one to a power weapon using Machinator Array), go into Deathwatch Champion.

Posted at

@ Conversion Beamer : yeah but your BS won't be sky high as the one the other cool kids get, and it has to be fired at long range, which means no bonuses or even a malus. The Techmarine doesn't have any range Talent, and I'm not complaining about that. Just saying that he has weaknesses so his incredible toughness is "his shtick", just like the Dev ends up doing Called Shots at Long Range without penalties, the Assault ends up hacking 4 times for a half action, etc, etc...

And yeah, Stealers are still ******* to Techmarines (although less to them than to the rest of the party), and a good Lascannon shot in their face still brings them down.

Posted at

Stormast said:

@ Conversion Beamer : yeah but your BS won't be sky high as the one the other cool kids get, and it has to be fired at long range, which means no bonuses or even a malus. The Techmarine doesn't have any range Talent, and I'm not complaining about that. Just saying that he has weaknesses so his incredible toughness is "his shtick", just like the Dev ends up doing Called Shots at Long Range without penalties, the Assault ends up hacking 4 times for a half action, etc, etc...

And yeah, Stealers are still ******* to Techmarines (although less to them than to the rest of the party), and a good Lascannon shot in their face still brings them down.

It's not hard to get +10-20% to hit just from size (especially against the tougher enemies where you really want something with the CB's power), so you're still looking at anywhere from 50-70% chance to hit against nastier enemies. That's not too bad.

Genestealers are nasty for anyone. The AM has it best, I think, because of the extra Reactions. In DW, it's much more important to be able to avoid the hit in the first place rather than just try to take it. That's why I don't see the Techmarine's toughness as game-breaking; if anything, the AM's 3 Reactions compared to everyone else's 1 is a much bigger defensive advantage.

Posted at

What I meant is, as the Tech isn't Ranged focused, he has the biggest gun (although a weird one, more like a pew pew gun at short range ;) ), but he will not be as reliable in mowing down the big baddies as his little bro' Devastator if that one takes a Lascannon (which IIRC is at the same Req and Renown level, or comparable). Which is totally fine.

And we totally agree about his Toughness, it's just that "He has the Beam converter" is not an argument that shows the Techmarine is powerful. It shows he's completely cool, because shooting a Beam Converter is totally badass.