Actually, you'll only see Hordes being taken out in one round (by one opponent) if they're fairly small, roughly the 20-30 magnitude range. At best, a starting Dev with Heavy Bolter and Metal Storm rounds who lands all six shots will do 13 + 1d5 (6 shots + 6 damage from MS rounds + 1 from exploside damage + 1d5 from UD). That's still very good, but that's a perfect shot. The damage will increase a bit (even more if you use SoI as doubling the entire magnitude damage and not the base).

Magnitude damage is calculated in two steps, that is something you should be aware of

1. Calculating # of hits. (In this case: 12 + 1 + 1d5)

2. Translate hits into mag damage (With SoI this becomes: 3x(13+1d5) mag damage)

One-shotting a Horde of more than magnitude 60 will take some doing, which seems reasonable. The downside to this is that the Horde-killing ability of everyone else went down, too; just not as much as the Dev's ability. What really hurts is the weakening of the frag grenade, since that's what a lot of the other specialties use for Horde damage.

You only need to learn as a GM to scale down horde mag sizes comparably.

Actually, the Dev as-is is really more of a sniper if you look at the Talents available. IW and UD specify heavy weapons, but the majority of Talents are best if used with a single-shot type weapon since they help with called shots, shooting at extreme ranges, firing and moving, etc. If the Dev was to be a real heavy weapons specialist, there would be more heavy-weapons-specific abilities they could tap. The specialty is really just a catch-all for "guys that like to shoot."

Storm of Iron will make the Dev the anti-horde guy again. Also you are being too pessimistic: KTs will tend to assign roles among themselves. SO the team will need to face vehicles and concludes they will need two multi-meltas. Who will get them? Most likely th Devastator of the kill-team will not get empty-handed.

Devs have still very cheap BS advances. They get Storm of Iron. They get Mighty Shot on first rank. They either get a nice horde bonus or another to-hit bonus (although they don't really need it that much at higger ranks).

DW is still very much a shootists game. No, I don't feel bad about the Devastator I play. Okay, right now he is brandishing a Lascannon too but that's another story.

Alex

I really like that plasma guns are now the terror of space marines everywhere, as they should be. But I do have... concerns.

For one, on Page 8 of the errata, a new addition changes the damage for vehicle-mounted heavy bolters to 2d10+10 (which was the norm for astartes-portable heavy bolters before this new errata), but another new change on Page 10 changes the damage for astartes-portable heavy bolters to 1d10+12. Also, astartes-portable heavy bolters have had their full-auto rating reduced to 6, and there is no mention of this applying to vehicle-mounted heavy bolters, which otherwise can be presumed to retain their full-auto rating of 10. What's up with this discrepancy?

Another discrepancy is that the astartes combi-weapon's semi-auto rate of fire is 4, while regular bolters now have 3 for their semi-auto rate of fire. Is this a typo, or is there a reason a bolter has increased rate of fire when it is combined with another weapon?

For that matter, I am concerned with the change that bolters in general (excepting the heavy bolter) are now incapable of full-auto fire. While this seems to fit what we've read in fluff and see in games like Dawn of War more than it would otherwise, it means that the average Space Marine is now incapable of providing suppressive fire or overwatch. As at least two squad-mode abilities involve those two actions, this is concerning for me.

My final point of confusion regards the Tau pulse carbine. I understand that it is supposed to be the close-ranged (assault?) version of the pulse rifle. Yet it is incapable of fully automatic fire. I also understand that it has an underslung photon grenade launcher. Is that why it has the Devastating (1) quality? And if so, shouldn't that be applied only to the underslung photon grenade launcher, and not to every shot from the pulse carbine's primary weapon?

I am comfortable with every other aspect of the new update. Wrathful Descent and Unrelenting Devastation have been nicely clarified, and while it involved a nerf for the devastator, I can live with it. I'm glad the Thunder Hammer got what it deserved (and what we all knew it had already).

Bandersnatch said:

That is easily explained. The new weapon damages are optional. So if you use them, you have to convert the vehicle mounted bolters to 1d10+12 just as with any normal hand-held HB. If you don't use them, you stick to the 2d10+10 stats.

Bandersnatch said:

Valid question that begs for an answer.

Bandersnatch said:

Ah yes, the Semi-Auto Bolters. I forgot to take that into account in my Weapon Analysis. Changes the standing of the Storm Bolter of course too. It compunds the less-than-heroic feeling of the new rules.

Bandersnatch said:

Well, the Pulse Carbine rules are a bit of a kludgy hack. The problem is that everything else probably would have made it too lethal against the PCs. I mean 3d10+12 Pen 4 + Semi Auto fire? And the Pulse Rifle would have to be even better then...

Alex

Also, why have autopistols and autoguns lost their full-auto rate of fire? (Without that, don't we have to call them something else?)

Bandersnatch said:

Semi-auto guns. Good catch though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

It is a good catch, my gut says that's a limiter so that you don't end up with accidental dead marines from a lucky autogun shot (though with hordes crap Ballistic Skill it's unlikley you'd have ever seen more than 3 anyhow)

Apparently this thing won't post my responses, so this is in response to your first post in the thread, Alex.

RE: Magnitude Damage Calculation

Nope, at least not the last I heard (for one thing, SoI only does 2x damage). The last I heard, the word from above was to follow the mathematical order of operations, so any multiplication/dividing should be done before adding the +1d5. I agree with you that it seems like it should be carried out as you have, and in fact that's how I do it in my game since it seemed that's what the Talent description intended. Given how rules can change so quickly (I'm thinking of the Requisition debacle, now), it wouldn't surprise me if I had missed where the rule was changed/clarified, so let me know if there's something I missed here.

RE: Scaling Down Magnitude

But that's the thing. I don't want to scale down. I see DW as an epic game. I compare it to your run-of-the-mill sci-fi RPGs like I do Exalted to a basic sword-and-sorcery game (D&D, for example). The party isn't normal, everyday Joes that are always the underdogs. That's my take on it, at least.

RE: Devastators

Devs can kill Hordes, yes. And I agree that when a KT needs to hand out heavy weapons, the Dev shouldn't be left out. My fear is that the Dev doesn't stand out enough in his role as the others do. For example, I know my party always wants to have an Apothecary and Techmarine around. Those are roles that can't be filled nearly as well by others. No Assault Marine can decide to start throwing Psychic Powers around because the KT lacks a Librarian. But since anyone can lug around and shoot a Heavy Bolter, or Lascannon, they are essentially more useful specialties to take than the one-trick pony Devs.

What I really wonder is what sort of missions other GMs are sending their KTs on. I've run a few of the printed modules, but also a bit of other stuff. Devs mow down their opponents in nice, open spaces. I think that's the way it should be. But I don't think I've ever had a session where the KT didn't spend significant time in tighter quarters, such as building interiors, caves, and ships. In those situations, the Dev is practically a liability and the weaknesses in the specialty are really highlighted.

RE: Your Devastator

I expect I wouldn't feel bad if I was brandishing a Lascannon, either.

Oh, and I look forward to hearing how your next session goes, Charmander.

Brand said:

This forum software is flawless, how dare you

Brand said:

I use tight spaces in some cases as welll, however unless I intentionally create an environment to limit the movement and abilities of the devestator (like making everyone walk single file or the like) they still blast the holy hell out of enemies. And making adventures where half the time the Dev is either engaged in hand to hand or can't shoot past his friends get's frustrating for the players. I do worry a bit about the tac getting too close to the dev, but I don't tend to run with a boatload of hordes anyhow so I'm hopeful the semi auto of the bolguns versus the full auto of the heavy bolter will keep him in front. But again, hypothesis, we'll see when the dice hit the table

The pros are that this FAQ fixes the (overwhelming) power of Astartes Bolt Weapons, the Heavy Bolter specifically, whilst at the same time making the Melta/Plasma/Flamer trio much better. Unfortunately the side effect of this is we have mistakes:

1. Frag Missiles do less damage than Frag Grenades.
2. The Thunder Hammer makes no mention of the Unnatural Toughness (x2) it gives.
3. The Bolter portion of the Combi-Bolter has been given the same stats as the Storm Bolter.
4. The Storm Bolter should be S/-/3, so that it can fire on Full-Auto still without shooting more shots than the Heavy Bolter.
5. Autoguns and Pistols are missing the 'auto' part of their name now since they had their Full-Auto rules taken away.
6. The Sacris Claymore rolls more damage dice than the Power Claymore, that's just incongruent.

There are probably others, but they're just the ones I've noticed on a first glance.

BYE

Charmander said:

This forum's software is a spawn of the Antipath himself.

Charmander said:

My advice remains to limit Bolt Mastery to Pistol and Basic weapons. Solves the problems of HB wielding Tacs immediately. You'll see Bolters and then Storm Bolters instead. Btw, we need to find a good house rule for Storm Bolters too. I'd like to see the Bolter being more suitable for a mission than the SB under some circumstances. Otherwise you get Marines only slinging Storm Bolters from a certain rank on and that's boring.

Brand said:

First of all a correction. The calculation goes like this:

2x6 hits (MetalStorm) = 12 hits. Translates into 12 damage. +1d5 for UD. This gets doubled by SoI for 24+ 1d5x2. Then after all hits have been applied an additional hit from X type damage. = 1 mag damage x2 from SoI. Total 26 + 1d5x2.

The reason I am doing it this way is this:

1. SoI says any damage gets multiplied.

2. X damage explicitly gets added at the end according to the errata. However the UD does not get explicitly added at the end. Since SoI affects any damage, it should be affected. As well as the damage caused by the X hit.

Brand said:

Noone will ever know but you. You scale down the mag but keep the descriptions of the action as before. The only thing that changes is the factor between horde mag and the number of enemies that make up the horde in your descriptions. Smaller mag but same member count means higher factor.

Anyway, mechanically you only need to watch out for the 10 and 20 mag thresholds. It shifts the way hordes work a bit.

Brand said:

Yes but you can also do without Assault Marine or Tactical. These are the rank-and-file troops in home chapters. Techmarines, Librarians, Apothecaries. They are more or less HQ (or Elites according to the new codex).

I get your point. However DW is still primarily a shooting game and so someone who is a shooting specialist does bring its own assets to the KT. Having a Devastator should make you win fights more easily. He's the one that puts all 6 HB shots on target, unlike the Apothecary who only manages 4. And the Dev has Mighty Shot unlike the Techmarine and so he can do up to 12 more points of damage than him per attack.

Alex

H.B.M.C. said:

I agree with Brother H.B.M.C - the new Errata seems to fix problems by taring up new ones.

1. Thats just stupid and needs to be fixed.

3. The Combi-Bolter should be exactly as the new normal bolter.

4. Stormbolter should have full auto. Maybe this can be fixed with S/2/4 and removing storm entirely?

5. Stupid again. The Autogun from Dark Heresy is basically the Assault Rifle of the 41st Millenium. It should be allow to fire on auto. Dont worry about our fellow Marines as they are able to soak that kind of Damage easily (assuming TB 8 and Powerarmour).

6. Just because the Storm Wardens have their own Claymores doesnt neccessarily mean they need extra stats for it. How about making it 1D10+4 instead of 2d10, just like the errata did with almost all additional d10s.

This Errata does two things. Fixing the overwhelming Bolters, and shifting the focus of the game towards melee. Removing the Full Auto Option means much less damage, and requires the Battlebrothers to engage in melee more often, as they became unable of crippling opponents with a few salvos.

The removal of Full-Auto from all Bolt Weapons is something I welcome (except in the case of the Storm Bolter!). It was too many shots with a +20 To Hit with too easy a DOS requirement to get the extra hits.

Consider the poor Stalker Pattern Bolter. Single shot at +20 to hit (with Aim + Accurate), single hit, max potential 4D10 damage (plus the base damage, plus tearing). Then look at the Bolter, four shots with +20 to hit, and 2D10 damage (+ tearing) each with four hits. Why bother with the Stalker? It's not hard to get the four hits, four hits are harder to Dodge than one, and it's far more consistent from a damage perspective.

Now, with 1D10 for all Bolters (+ Tearing), the Stalker is looking much better.

BYE

ak-73 said:

One shotting hordes becomes a lot easier with a dark angel in charge, as that essentially double's the party's damage in round 1...

I'm not convinced about the way you're doing the SoI maths there. Multiply first and then add is the traditional way of doing things, and it's born out with the unnatural statistics rules, as well as being less obviously game-breaking.

Do you need an auto-weapon to overwatch? I don't believe that to be the case (and if it is, the rule is silly and should be houeruled), and so bolters can still do overwatch. The lack of suppression is more concerning, but I'm guessing that is now a niche for the Dev. Which is cool, because that's what squad automatic weapons are for!

I assume that the better combi-weapon stats represent that combi-weapons are high-quality weapons built for heroes, so the bolter element is of a higher standard. Anyway: Combiweapons are cool, and deserve to be a viable option. Without the RoF 4, they aren't, really.

Frag missiles don't really do less damage... only against targets who are completely lacking in armour, as the missile has Pen 4. Consider the frag missile now to be a dual purpose munition for both infantry and for use against light vehicles and cover.

The 'not so autogun' is still an autogun if you consider 'semi auto' to be 'lower rate of fire than a support weapon full auto'. And it's still an auto-loading weapon, just as automatic pistols aren't fully automatic. It's just terminology.

The Claymore is still ridiculous, but that's because Storm Wardens are uber!!!!111win, or something. C'mon; the writer had to give their Chapter a bit of a boost *somewhere*.

Siranui said:

If you are multiplying and adding the same thing, then you may have a point. However the X damage adds a hit, while SoI multiplies damage. We can argue about it but there can be no certainty without directly asking FFG about it, I fear.

Siranui said:

I just reread it, you don't need it for overwatch but for suppressive fire.

Siranui said:

I'd guess that it's a typo though.

Siranui said:

Two words: Thunder Charge.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Without a answer from FFG, I'm happier going with the version that's less open to abuse and more in line with existing axioms.

It might be a typo on the frag missiles, but it's one I'm happy to roll with. Autoshotguns though... well, I assume the +1 damage over the conventional ones is some kind of karmic payback for pump-actions doing +1 damage in Feng Shui, because they're cool.

And yeah...Thunder Charge and a slew of other insane stuff. Storm Wardens try to sneak in under the 'OMFG' radar, but they are disgustingly good, even next to a Blood Angel. Loving that 'let's all have a free go' Pattern, too.

Power Claymore vs Sacris claymore

4-22 damage for the Sacris or 12-22 pen 8 w/ power field and Devastating 1 for the power claymore

Yeah don't see the Sacris being too overpowered there.

Frag Missles vs Grenades...

4-22 damage Blast 4 for grenades or 2-20 pen 4 Blast 5 for Missiles with a range of 250.

Don't see the missiles as being under power at all either.

Anyone notice that on the wording of how targeted psychic powers now have the attack subtype appears to also indicate that characters are limited in what action they can take by subtype?

So no more standard attack + knockdown, or a half move followed by some other movement subtype action.

This is nice though, it avoids my game breaking theory of a Librarian with a heavy bolter and suspensors doing a half action full auto and smite.

I will say at least that I like that they "fixed" unrelenting devastation from the semi-broken state it was in in the last errata. They really screwed it up back then, making a missile launcher a terrible choice. Not sure if I like the current version to the original version though (I found the normal rule to be just fine, especially since I understood the interaction between the old UD rule and something like metal storm ammo, making the original errata for UD stupid).

In my games, I've generally liked the notion that hordes are mostly speed bumps, but now they appear less so with the suggested decreases in RoF and the mag damage hit Devs took with this errata.

The Combi-bolter having the same RoF as the Storm bolter is logical. The Combi was the predecessor to the Storm bolter.

I can't really see that as a mistake.

KommissarK said:

Yeah I noticed it, though I still can't find where it says you cannot use the same subtype twice, though I am *sure* it is listed somewhere (or at least in DH or RT)..

ItsUncertainWho said:

But this isn't the same type of combi bolter, right? This is the combi bolter with an extra type of weapon, not an extra bolter added on. Or are even the more "modern" type of combi bolters actually built off of the heresy era combi bolters we see among the traitor legions? I'm not sure the RoF increase is that meaningful, but still, a combi melta is now pretty awesome (if your GM is strict on how many weapons they allow you to take).

@Maelflux:

I've looked before, but I've never seen that written. Alot of people on here seemed to assume it way back though, so I always considered it a murky part of the rules. This at least helps clarify what RAW is then to me. Not sure if I'm actually going to implement it. Not sure if it even matters (beyond what it did to psychic powers and full auto now).

KommissarK said:

Combi-bolters are custom weapons, wielded by heroes, not the 40k version of an M-4 with a M203 just bolted on. It makes sense for them to be 'better' than the standard Godwyn bolter. It also makes them viable, because with standard bolter stats, they are complete junk, and no PC would bother with them.

The missile launch terrible?! The drop in frag radius makes sense when you consider that it was artificially high in order to make the launcher a viable choice (ha! kinda...) compared to a HB with UD. Frag missiles are now much more in line with other horde killing weapons. The changes to crack missiles aren't really much of a change. And it's still a great weapon: 10Req for a multi-role weapon that's great against hordes AND armour, and comes with two kinds of ammo for free. That's a bargain, right there. No other weapon is so versatile, and no other heavy weapon so cheap (look at the price of an aux grenade launcher!)

I think it's still a great buy for when you're not sure what you'll be facing, and want to cover all bases. It's an ideal weapon for a second Dev or Tactistator.

@Siranui

My point was the initial errata had something weird where a blast weapon in the hands of a devastator lost the blast quality's bonus damage vs. hordes, but gained both the +1 damage and +1d5 for blast with UD. This caused a strange difference in mag damage between a Dev with UD and anyone else wielding a (frag) missile launcher, making the Dev inferior.

Might be wrong on this, don't have a copy of the old errata with me. But I seem to recall it causing something along those lines. It was obvious the change was made to attempt to deal with metal storm and HBs, but effectively changed nothing about the interaction of those two, just reworded it. Instead it caused wacky issues with the missile launcher.

Is it fixed now?

It seems that there are still no requisition costs for power and scout armour for the purpose of requisitioning higher qualities...... That would have been really nice after RoB brought us all those shiny stylish old armours.

Good god, Thunder Hammers are resoundingly better than even Relic Blades now.

More damage, more useful special ability, only takes one hand so you can still have a Storm Shield...

I forsee a whole lot of ASMs swinging a Thunder Hammer till they die.