RE: ak and Charmander
Given how many of my posts the forum ate last night, I recommend the mods either do something to keep the machine spirits happy or start a search to find any possible Tyranid infestation. 
Thunder Hammers are really nasty; they might need to be toned down a bit. I'd still rather take a hit from one of them than an angry Force Sword-wielding Librarian, though.
ItsUncertainWho said:
I can't really see that as a mistake.
The Combi-Bolter with a good rate of fire, yes. Perfectly fine, especially when you consider that a Combi-Bolter is two Bolters.
The current Combi-Weapons that the Imperium use (and that are in the DW rules) are not the original Bolter/Bolter Combi-Weapons. They're Bolter/Plasma, Bolter/Melta or Bolter/Flamer. The Bolter/Bolter got its rate of fire from being two Bolters. Take one of those Bolters away and you have... a Bolter! So it should act like a bolter.
BYE
No: You still have a custom-made bolter that can justifiably be a bit better than the norm. Put it like this: otherwise it's junk that nobody with a brain would take.
The thunder hammer is whack if you allow one handed use in normal power armour, but ok if you restrict to two.
H.B.M.C. said:
The Combi-Bolter with a good rate of fire, yes. Perfectly fine, especially when you consider that a Combi-Bolter is two Bolters.
The current Combi-Weapons that the Imperium use (and that are in the DW rules) are not the original Bolter/Bolter Combi-Weapons. They're Bolter/Plasma, Bolter/Melta or Bolter/Flamer. The Bolter/Bolter got its rate of fire from being two Bolters. Take one of those Bolters away and you have... a Bolter! So it should act like a bolter.
It should. Hence why, within the context of my games, the Bolter is being increased to S/4/-, to bring it into line with rate of fire of bolt the Combi-Weapon bolter element and the Storm Bolter (which has always been just a Bolter with Storm in its appearances in 40kRP games, just like the Combi-Bolter used by Traitor Legion forces is mechanically just a Bolter with the Twin-Linked quality)
I guess there's still something wrong with the Thunderhammer. They added the strength bonus increase to the text but not to the weapons table, the damage should be lowered in exchange for that. It doesn't make only the thunder hammer crazily powerful but also the Master of Blades distinction that can allow you to count any other power weapon as a thunder hammer.
With the new UD rule, I have to say the attraction of taking a Heavy Bolter and a backpack supply of Hellfire rounds is awfully tempting.
And I agree with NO-1. The RoF for bolters, storm bolters, and combi-weapons should be the same.
ItsUncertainWho said:
Frag Missles vs Grenades...
4-22 damage Blast 4 for grenades or 2-20 pen 4 Blast 5 for Missiles with a range of 250.
Don't see the missiles as being under power at all either.
But it's unreasonable that the missile should find it tougher to wound and therefore cause any damage to hordes at all. Let's just call it a typo.
Also they overlooked giving the Relic weapons a do-over.
Alex
And I agree with NO-1. The RoF for bolters, storm bolters, and combi-weapons should be the same.
I don't. The combi-bolter is a character weapon you pay extra requisition for, as is the Storm Bolter. They're supposed to be better. If they weren't why spend Req or Talents on them?
Defenstrator said:
I don't. The combi-bolter is a character weapon you pay extra requisition for, as is the Storm Bolter. They're supposed to be better. If they weren't why spend Req or Talents on them?
The Storm Bolter is better because it has the Storm quality. The Combi-Bolter is better because it has an integral one-shot flamer, meltagun or plasma gun... I really don't think they need more distinction than that.
The Storm Bolters should be S/-/3, and be the only Bolter outside of Heavy Bolters/specialist Bolters/Relics that can be used on Full-Auto.
All the rest should sit at S/3/- (other than the aforementioned HB/specialist Bolters/Relics).
BYE
Did they nerfed space marines abilities and weapons and upgraded the power level of their enemies?
Just to throw something else into the mix with the new weapon stats, I think there is a problem with them compared to the other systems. Where possible I'd like to think that all the 40k roleplay systems are compatible with each other, so making autoguns full-auto 10 in one system and not able to in another is ultimately confusing and unnecessary.
I appreciate that these are optional alternative stats, but that brings about it's own problems. Will future weapons (such as those in mark of the xenos) be based on the original book stats or the new ones? Will the errata stats have to be updated for every new book?
I'm all for the new weapon damage values (when players see no point in taking Plasma and Melta weapons then there is something wrong with the stats) but I think the rate of fire values are totally off, both from a fluffy point of view and their place in the wider system.
Naviward said:
Just to throw something else into the mix with the new weapon stats, I think there is a problem with them compared to the other systems. Where possible I'd like to think that all the 40k roleplay systems are compatible with each other, so making autoguns full-auto 10 in one system and not able to in another is ultimately confusing and unnecessary.
I appreciate that these are optional alternative stats, but that brings about it's own problems. Will future weapons (such as those in mark of the xenos) be based on the original book stats or the new ones? Will the errata stats have to be updated for every new book?
I'm all for the new weapon damage values (when players see no point in taking Plasma and Melta weapons then there is something wrong with the stats) but I think the rate of fire values are totally off, both from a fluffy point of view and their place in the wider system.
Yeah. As I said, I think weapon stats in BC will be heavily based on those here. There likely will be changes based on our feedback, probably upping Bolt slightly again, probably, reinstating more Full-Auto fire weapons.
Just my guess. As I see it they get closer to a balanced and fully integrated system with each iteration, so I'm chill.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Yeah. As I said, I think weapon stats in BC will be heavily based on those here. There likely will be changes based on our feedback, probably upping Bolt slightly again, probably, reinstating more Full-Auto fire weapons.
Just my guess. As I see it they get closer to a balanced and fully integrated system with each iteration, so I'm chill.
Alex
That's a good point, I'd hadn't thought of that. With BC having to cover a wider range of characters (from chaos marines to minions with pistols), they will have had to have balanced a wider range of weapons as well. Not that I think the original deathwatch book was massively out compared to the other systems, it just seemed to lack a bit of internal consistancy.
Will be good to see where they've pitched the damage level (original deathwatch, errata or as you said, somewhere in between).
N0-1_H3r3 said:
The Storm Bolter is better because it has the Storm quality. The Combi-Bolter is better because it has an integral one-shot flamer, meltagun or plasma gun... I really don't think they need more distinction than that.
Ten points extra for a one-shot weapon? I certainly wouldn't dream of requisitioning a combi-weapon without them having some form of other advantage, because otherwise they're pretty dreadful. I don't really see any of those bolt-on special weapons in a one-shot format being worth the extra 10 points. Can you see yourself using one? If the answer is 'no', then they still need tweaking.
Combi flamer: Mmm... nice against a horde...for one shot, which is only really good if the horde dies in one round, and pretty lame otherwise (just throw a frag grenade instead). Or... buy a real flamer with the 10Req as well as a bolter, and have more than one shot. Or a flame pistol if space is at a premium. Utter junk in every way except for 'Aliens'-esque looks-cool value.
Combi plasma: Well, it'd be better if it was a 'whole' plasma gun, but it's not. You can't fire maximum power shots, and you don't even get a real 'shot' with the plasma gun, as the clip holds one shot and plasma is RoF 2. So you get half a shot! Just pay 20 and get a real plasma gun and have a piece of kit that's just better in every way.
Combi melta: The only one that is temping in any way. A bolter with a bit of close-up anti-armour power. For ten Req, It's even a bit better than just tossing one of your crack grenades. Or...y'know... leave the anti-armour work to proper heavy weapons.
I now find myself considering one of the combi-weapons (melta) as an option, at least. With a RoF of 3, though: No chance.
The errata skipped a mistake on the Daemon Prince's stats. He lists Unnatural Toughness x2 and a Toughness of 45. It lists his TB (presumably the number in brackets) as 12. I assume his Unnatural Toughness should be x3, same as his Strength?
KommissarK said:
I will say at least that I like that they "fixed" unrelenting devastation from the semi-broken state it was in in the last errata. They really screwed it up back then, making a missile launcher a terrible choice. Not sure if I like the current version to the original version though (I found the normal rule to be just fine, especially since I understood the interaction between the old UD rule and something like metal storm ammo, making the original errata for UD stupid).
It was an errata that was unneeded last time. If read carefully UD worked fine (though it was slightly busted with the super-heavy bolter). At most it needed a clarification. Good thing they have undone that damage, but I am not liking the look of the new rule though. Yes, Devastators needed a tone down, but I would have thought the nerfing of the Heavy Bolter (as was needed) was sufficient. Now... well, I guess my main concern is that our assault marine is now going to be the outshining everyone in a fight, and he does seem to be the tool for everything. Hordes, dead. Elites, dead. Masters, dead. Only armour is resistant and then only if he doesn't take something like power fists.
Though I guess I am still thinking of hordes as speed bumps, and if I change that then the double whammy starts to make more sense. Doesn't solve the assault marine problem (he was easily rivalling the Devastator for horde damage, and there doesn't seem to be much toned down with the errata). Guess it just means Metal Storm ammo as norm for the Devastator now.
Regarding the Daemon Prince. Does he have Demonic as well? As that gives a level of unnatural toughness, bringing his total to x3 and so having a TB of 12.
He does have Daemonic, but my reading of the trait is unclear. I can't see where it says that it also grants +1 (per level of the trait) TB. It is a factor applied to their TB (itself increased by Unnatural Toughness). At least that is my reading.
signoftheserpent said:
He does have Daemonic, but my reading of the trait is unclear. I can't see where it says that it also grants +1 (per level of the trait) TB. It is a factor applied to their TB (itself increased by Unnatural Toughness). At least that is my reading.
Factors stack in an additive fashion in 40K RP. Two times 2x means you have a 3x net modifier . In general having Ax and Bx apply to the same bonus results in a total (A+B-1)x modifier. The new errata has it wrong again, btw, it should read Daemonic (2x).
Alex
Daemonic only stacks if the subject has Unnatural Tougheness and is being attacked by certain weapons. It doesn't explain the errant entry. If he has Daemonic x2 then being attacked in that way would make his TB 16 but only under those conditions (assuming his Unnatural Toughness is x2 not x3). It doesn't explain how you get a persistent TB of 12 with UT of x2 otherwise. That is my understanding of it. So there seems to be something still incorrect.
signoftheserpent said:
Daemonic only stacks if the subject has Unnatural Tougheness and is being attacked by certain weapons. It doesn't explain the errant entry. If he has Daemonic x2 then being attacked in that way would make his TB 16 but only under those conditions (assuming his Unnatural Toughness is x2 not x3). It doesn't explain how you get a persistent TB of 12 with UT of x2 otherwise. That is my understanding of it. So there seems to be something still incorrect.
Daemonic says "multiply their toughness bonus against all damage by the number indicated in parentheses after the trait IN THE SAME MANNER AS AN UNNATURAL CHARACTERISTIC"
the unnatural characteristic entry says "Each time you apply this trait to the same characteristic the bonus multiplier increases by 1..... Any additional modifiers... simply improves the existing multiplier by 1"
the specific example is using a powerfist which doubles your strength does not double your unnatural strength, but rather gives you unnat strength x3
This gives a daemon prince TB12 against anything that isnt a force weapon, holy attack, psychic power or another daemon. the 12 is given in the stat block because holy and daemonic attacks are very rare, and probably only 1 member out of the party will have access to psychic or force weapon attacks. so it is far more likely to have TB 12 against most attacks
Narkasis Broon said:
signoftheserpent said:
Daemonic only stacks if the subject has Unnatural Tougheness and is being attacked by certain weapons. It doesn't explain the errant entry. If he has Daemonic x2 then being attacked in that way would make his TB 16 but only under those conditions (assuming his Unnatural Toughness is x2 not x3). It doesn't explain how you get a persistent TB of 12 with UT of x2 otherwise. That is my understanding of it. So there seems to be something still incorrect.
Daemonic says "multiply their toughness bonus against all damage by the number indicated in parentheses after the trait IN THE SAME MANNER AS AN UNNATURAL CHARACTERISTIC"
the unnatural characteristic entry says "Each time you apply this trait to the same characteristic the bonus multiplier increases by 1..... Any additional modifiers... simply improves the existing multiplier by 1"
the specific example is using a powerfist which doubles your strength does not double your unnatural strength, but rather gives you unnat strength x3
This gives a daemon prince TB12 against anything that isnt a force weapon, holy attack, psychic power or another daemon. the 12 is given in the stat block because holy and daemonic attacks are very rare, and probably only 1 member out of the party will have access to psychic or force weapon attacks. so it is far more likely to have TB 12 against most attacks
Exactly.
Alex
Narkasis Broon said:
signoftheserpent said:
Daemonic only stacks if the subject has Unnatural Tougheness and is being attacked by certain weapons. It doesn't explain the errant entry. If he has Daemonic x2 then being attacked in that way would make his TB 16 but only under those conditions (assuming his Unnatural Toughness is x2 not x3). It doesn't explain how you get a persistent TB of 12 with UT of x2 otherwise. That is my understanding of it. So there seems to be something still incorrect.
Daemonic says "multiply their toughness bonus against all damage by the number indicated in parentheses after the trait IN THE SAME MANNER AS AN UNNATURAL CHARACTERISTIC"
the unnatural characteristic entry says "Each time you apply this trait to the same characteristic the bonus multiplier increases by 1..... Any additional modifiers... simply improves the existing multiplier by 1"
the specific example is using a powerfist which doubles your strength does not double your unnatural strength, but rather gives you unnat strength x3
This gives a daemon prince TB12 against anything that isnt a force weapon, holy attack, psychic power or another daemon. the 12 is given in the stat block because holy and daemonic attacks are very rare, and probably only 1 member out of the party will have access to psychic or force weapon attacks. so it is far more likely to have TB 12 against most attacks
signoftheserpent said:
Narkasis Broon said:
signoftheserpent said:
Daemonic only stacks if the subject has Unnatural Tougheness and is being attacked by certain weapons. It doesn't explain the errant entry. If he has Daemonic x2 then being attacked in that way would make his TB 16 but only under those conditions (assuming his Unnatural Toughness is x2 not x3). It doesn't explain how you get a persistent TB of 12 with UT of x2 otherwise. That is my understanding of it. So there seems to be something still incorrect.
Daemonic says "multiply their toughness bonus against all damage by the number indicated in parentheses after the trait IN THE SAME MANNER AS AN UNNATURAL CHARACTERISTIC"
the unnatural characteristic entry says "Each time you apply this trait to the same characteristic the bonus multiplier increases by 1..... Any additional modifiers... simply improves the existing multiplier by 1"
the specific example is using a powerfist which doubles your strength does not double your unnatural strength, but rather gives you unnat strength x3
This gives a daemon prince TB12 against anything that isnt a force weapon, holy attack, psychic power or another daemon. the 12 is given in the stat block because holy and daemonic attacks are very rare, and probably only 1 member out of the party will have access to psychic or force weapon attacks. so it is far more likely to have TB 12 against most attacks
Isn't that what I said? The Daemon Prince has Daemonic listed at level 1, that means, ignoring his UT trait for now, he doubles his normal TB. Adding that to his UT he multiplies his TB by 3 = 12. On it's own the Daemonic trait will give him a TB of 8 (as per the errata) because it doubles his TB of 4.
no, that isnt what you said, your post which I quoted said he has TB 16 when attacked by non psychic, non holy, non daemonic weapons. this is only true if he also has a mark of Nurgle.
he has TB 8 if attacked by a psychic, holy or daemonic weapon and TB 12 otherwise. his stat block says 12 because psychic, holy and daemonic weapons are relatively rare. so most attacks will be against a TB of 12
Narkasis Broon said:
no, that isnt what you said, your post which I quoted said he has TB 16 when attacked by non psychic, non holy, non daemonic weapons. this is only true if he also has a mark of Nurgle.
he has TB 8 if attacked by a psychic, holy or daemonic weapon and TB 12 otherwise. his stat block says 12 because psychic, holy and daemonic weapons are relatively rare. so most attacks will be against a TB of 12
Daemonic is conditional, that's what I said. He doesn't have a TB 12 all the time, so the entry is incorrect because it doesn't take into account the conditionality of the Daemonic trait. He only gets his TB of 12 if the conditions of Daemonic are met. So the entry needs amendment; at best it is very unclear.