After listening to the latest Reckless Dice podcast (check it out), I was surprised to hear them talking about handing out Corruption to characters who acted in the Ruinous Powers' interests.

In this case, there is a tracker that goes up and down based on the ethical choices the characters make.

SLIGHT SPOILERS FOR THE ADVENTURE IN OMENS OF WAR: It moves specifically based on violence. Promote violence, the tracker goes up. Promote peace to have it go down. END SPOILAGE

The hosts were all in agreement that this sort of thing should be handled with Corruption. I found this strange. I was used to thinking of Corruption as exposure to Chaos energies. For me it doesn't have anything to do with a character's ethical choices at all. Were it the case in my game, 2/3 of everyone walking down the street would be a mutant.

Was this a holdover from 2nd Edition? I played 1st before there were any rules like this, so I've been out of the loop.

How do you all use Corruption?

Yes, this is a great discussion point. I would simply leave it as this: "corruption as 'evil' brutality." If you've got someone who's out slaying innocents, this is a pretty good example of when it should simply be using "corruption."

I'm with the reckless podcast guys. There jsut doesn't need to be another thing to track. Lump it all into corruption.

jh

Magical Radiation. Or vaguey psychological fail.

The corruption meter idea monitoring a character's fall towards one Chaos god (which is what the review is talking about, I guess) is a good one, and some of the best bits of the WW are about that, but corruption tokens in WFRP just doesn't do that. The metaphor of physical mutation for psychological weakness is one of the most interesting things about WFRP and you could, I guess, do something like based solely on corruption tokens accrued, but that would be more taking cues from your corruption level to inform your roleplaying. I can't really see it feeding the other way. And if you are roleplaying the descent into Chaos off your own back, then the corruption tokens would be redundant in any case. Also the forces of Chaos are often opposed to each other, therefore to even start doing something like that you'd need four types of corruption token, istm.

Corruption from my end of the game table has always come from snorting warpdust like scarface and dealing with denizens, agents and forces from the realm of chaos. So chalk me up to not being a guy that would make you grow horns just because you bit off a guy's ear unnecessarily in a fight.

I would hand out corruption points to player characters that attended a Gwar concert though...

I only glanced at the adventure and the tracking device it included. I'm not sold on my understanding of the tracker, but I feel like it tracks something entirely different that corruption. So yeah, I see the tracker as an Ethics Meter, and Corruption as Magical Radiation. I mean, even magic use, which is where it could cross the line, doesn't. You get corruption for merely drawing power, it doesn't matter what you do with it.

Are there any mechanics involving corruption that care about the results of the actions like the Khorne tracker does?

I am in the magical radiation camp... though, once in a while, a chaos god will subject you to magical radiation because they approve of your actions.

First of all Doc, this is the best title for a threat in like forever!

I also use, and will continue to use, corruption as magical radiation. Punishing bad ethics with corruption means, that I'd steer my players towards a distinct 'goodie' behavior. Ultimately that could destroy what Warhammer stands for among other things - ambiguity and tough choices.

I would say the answer to be a mix of both, but the whole discussion has to include wether or not everyone in the whole world are somehow affected by winds of magic or not.

If corruption only came from magic, then denizens of Khorne would never be corrupted, as they don't wield magic, in fact they shun it... this doesn't make sense, as they're just as corrupted as the rest of the chaos cultists.

I remember a thread about winds of magic being attracted to certain types of behavior, so beasts would attract Amber winds, fierce warriors would attract Bright winds etc... I like this idea, because it then explains how people doing very bad stuff, attracts Dhar, which corrupts them.

AlephTau said:

There should definitely be a threshold for such things though. A thug who would rather solve his issues with his fists rather than his mouth shouldn't have corruption thrown at him - overly excessive actions perhaps might incur such penalties though.

I keep thinking of Anakins gradual turn to the dark side in EpIII....

Cyber-Dave said:

Totally agree with you on that one!

Spivo said:

Consider this idea stolen! Though I guess I hadn't ever thought about this concept directly, I think it is the perfect explanation of my understanding of Warhammer and Chaos. I also recall it mentioned (regarding Imperial Wizards) that certain people find themselves "attuned" to a certain Wind of Chaos which, if properly trained, is why they can eventually learn to manipulate that Wind in the form of spellcasting. This suggests that either those people have "attracted" said Wind in some way or that said Wind has chosen them or both. This also ties into the concept that not only does a Wizard shape the magical energy but the energy itself shapes the Wizard (physically, psychologically or otherwise).

Keep in mind that Chaos ultimately is the result of hominid energies. The blood lust of humanity, the desire to change their environment, their gluttony and indulgence - all these things are products of the Human (et al.) psyche and remember that the warp draws from that ebb and flow and manifests it as the forces of Chaos.

If one is exposed to warp material and chaos spawn there is certainly corruption, but giving in to these elements in a moral (read psyche) way also attracts them. I believe chaos is best represented by an analogy.

Image Chaos as iron dust in the air. Some times there is a lot of it, as thick as black smoke; other times things are covered in it like an ever-shedding layer of dirt. Most of the time it is a fine particulate everywhere in the air - it is what makes the world grim and dark beneath the shadow of storm clouds. For much of a normal life, a person might be exposed to a few handfuls of dust - if they hang around in temples and holy places where the air is clean, they might get less. Hanging around in wretched areas of scum and villianry would be like walking through a light, hazy fog of dust and you'd be more exposed. Every trip into the Chaos wastes can be seen as running into the smoke of a burning building - it will not take long for you to be overcome.

Now imagine doing evil things and giving into the ways of chaos. Think of this as magnatizing your skin. The more evil you do, the more 'magnatized' you become and the more 'dust' you attract. If you're constantly evil while you're in a place that's relatively clean all the time... well you're not going to attract a ton of corruption, but you'll get more than most. If you act vile and bastardly right in the thick of a Chaos invasion...that's like dropping a magnet into a bucket of iron filings.

Therefore; I wouldn't worry too much about adding corruption for bastardly things in a normal situation - unless someone shouts 'More blood for the blood god' before battle or something, corruption points might be a bit extreme. However, when the winds of chaos are swirling about the characters and one of them decides to act in an evil manner, picture their magnatization - the flow of chaos funneling into them as they give into their wretched nature - this is a case where morality will attract a measurable level of corruption.

Heh heh, yeah Magical Radiation for sure (awesome expression).

HOWEVER, after reading everyone's posts and ideas, I've decided that I would like to create a custom Ruinous Powers tracking sheet.

Basically, it has four trackers- one for each chaos god. Whenever a player induldges very much in behavior that would impress one of the Chaos gods, I would move the relevant tracker up.

However, I'm not sure how that would affect the game itself. Faustian bargains once the tracker is high enough? Not sure.

Maybe such a thing would be worthy of another thread... If people would be interested in discussing such a thing.

I work on the basis of corruption tokens being a form of magical radiation (exposure to Dhar can have dramatic effects on people), but I like the idea of Dhar also being attracted to corrupt/evil people and may start working that in as well. At the same time I'd quite like to have evil NPCs who weren't tied to chaos to make defeating them harder for the players. For example an unscrupulous noble takes a dislike to them and makes their lives hell, he's otherwise an upright and law-abiding citizen so the PCs have to deal with him within the confines of the law (heavily weighted against non-nobles of course) rather than just burning him at the stake!

If you do go for the Ruinous Power tracker route (and it's an idea I liked when I saw it in OOW), remember to boost PCs up a tracker if they foil the plans of the opposing power... After my PCs foiled a Tzeentch plot I decided that Nurgle might start following their careers with mild interest! I didn't use a tracker though, just started working in chances to contract horrible diseases here and there. If the PCs fall foul of one of them they may wind up having to strike a bargain

I very much go with the 'magical radiation.' There are plenty of other ways to reward and punish players for their ethics. Admittedly the game wouldn't function well if the players out and out wanted to play chaos cultists (well, if they all did, then fine), but the game is meant to handle (and does) all kinds of shades of grey.

Ultimately, fate points (in all the versions of the game, but I think most successfully in 3rd ed) are what indicate to the players what is expected of them morally. They are fated to be champions against chaos. That doesn't mean they have to be nice people. If they inflict a lot of evil, there should still be a way (in most games) for the players to still in some way help tip the balance against the forces of chaos.

If they don't, then I'd rather reduce the fate points they get and use, than 'punish' them with corruption. I think the moral choices the players and their characters make are much less significant if there's an obvious mechanical / divine punishment mechanism for doing the 'wrong' thing.

Angelic Despot said:

I agree. This is always how I've conceptualized Fate/Fortune Points as well.

Doc, the Weasel said:

It's not always like that. I haven't read the adventure completely but as I understand it it's special circumstances that makes violent acts give people corruption.

Gallows said:

And the treasure is hidden in the chest with the yellow jewel! And you avoid the trap by going through the door to the left.

Spoilers, Gallows.

Gallows said:

I'm more interested in different people's take on handing out Corruption than the adventure itself.

I think that using Corruption for the adventure rather than the tracker would be wrong, because many of the things that move the tracker are things that most would never hand out Corruption for.

I hand out Corruption in the similar cases to the following examples. Also I am no phd in Corruptology...:

A player is knee deep in Skaven corpses and the Grey Seer stars laughing as the player realizes that what he thought was tunnelling dirt covering the clan rats is really warp dust...uh oh...

A player has just watched their friends get skewered by a Blood Drinker before it destabilized and got sucked back into the aethyr. Gazing through the blood dripping into their eyes they see that the high priest of the murder cult is about ready to complete his ceremony. In a last ditch effort to not have the entire city of Nuln suffer the consequences he grabs the smoking amulet worn by the blood drinker off the temple floor. Suddenly, the summoning words spoken by the cult leader spring to mind....

A player keeps that forbidden tome that should have been given over to the Templars of Sigmar. Over the next few months his curiosity gets the better of him and he starts reading. Why is everyone so worried about this stupid book? Wait was that sentence directed at me? Yes book, now that you mention it the others are always cutting me down behind my back...

TLDR; Involuntary expsoure to things that should not be, "Justified" lapses in judgement, and Active pursuit of heretical power/lore

Callidon said:

Interesting... I would agree with your first example, agree with the second (but because of physical exposure to something chaotic, not because they were making a judgement call, and only agree with the 3rd example if the book itself was chaotic.

i.e. I wouldn't hand them corruption for stealing the book or failing to hand it over to the authorities, or even for choosing to read something forbidden. Only as they read, and only after they've read quite a bit might I give them corruption for this. But for their exposure to the power of chaos, not for their 'guilt/sin' in choosing to do something wrong.

Of course, I would try to give the player the opportunity to put the knowledge from the book to 'good' use, which might lead to further corruption...

I try to stay away from anything that causes my wicked NPCs (or PCs) to become supernaturally wicked. A world where evil isn't all backed up by dark forces but rather simple human weakness and malice is much darker tin my mind.

My take:

Corruption (Liber Mutatis, lovely purple diamonds building up on heroes) is magical radiation. It's exposure to sources of chaos energy ("warp energy" in WH 40,000). Mechanically, none of the triggers for corruption checks there have a "moral choice" inherent in them. You might encounter them because of good or bad moral choices or just bad luck.

Moral choices can attract the attention of Ruinous Powers which may lead to actions, offers, etc. that carry with them the risk of corruption. It's not the "moral choice" that is directly responsible, it's the Ruinous Power's interest in it. The choice doesn't even have to be truly "immoral" for it to gain the Power's interest.

This distinction is likely poorly understood in the Old World (the elves likely understand it well enough) with moralistic views popular, though across editions there is a strong theme of it being widely understand that many mutants "didn't ask for it" and are to be pitied (though still burned of course).

Break and spaces - Player Spoilers for Omens of War Adventure follow below -

The "Blood Tracker" in Liber Carnagia adventure responds to the use of violence. It too is not really "moral choices" but rather "choices pleasing to Khorne/his servant". Khorne's attention, or that of any Ruinous Power, may have affects on someone regardless of their merit, moral-choices etc. Having gained enough attention and making a bad roll = "servant of Chaos for all time". The Dan Abnett story "Riders of the Dead" shows a sympathetic character becoming a chaos champion mostly because the Ruinous Power wants him and not because he deserves the fate - I think that's a good example.

I do think it would have been appropriate for the daemon-hosting item to be a source of corruption. It fits the examples given for a Moderate Exposure (profane artefact, deamonic entity). Perhaps while it was dormant it would not have been such a source, but it seems to me that it would be by the time the adventure is tooting along.

SPOILERS for Crimson Rain

valvorik said:

It is.

I'm going to say that I never really piped up during the "discussion" of this topic in RDP 9, in fact I feel it was more a passing thought by Paul than anything. However, that being said I really think Doc has brought to light a very interesting topic which could be interpreted in many different ways (and in fact is in the Old World itself).

I've always seen corruption as a combination of several factors, the two most major being stated in Doc's title for this thread. Magickal Radiation remains the most prevalent and easy method of dealing with corruption as a whole; moreover, this really brings home the physical effects that the winds of chaos/magic have over the world at large and its inhabitants. I've used corruption in this way many times: the party is exposed to very concentrated amounts of the twisting Aethyric energies with no way of warding the ill effects off therefore they become unwittingly corrupted.

However moral choices such as indiscriminate murder (Khorne) or consistent lying in order to bend others to ones will and plan for the world (Tzeentch) will attract the attentions of the Ruinous Powers. So that being said somebody who lives in an area relatively void of concentrated magical "radiation" but who makes constant choices and maneuvers in the spheres of Chaotic influence will undoubtedly become corrupted.

I am not in possession of the Winds of Magic supplement until later this week so the exact 3rd edition rules for handling corruption are not mine to quote. But I've been steeped in Warhammer lore for nearly twenty years and this has been my conclusion on what "corruption" in the Old World is, and how it effects the denizens of that grim and brutal place.

<<<<<<SPOILERS FOLLOW >>>>>>

In Crimson Rain the tracker seems to just be a measure of violence as a whole. Khorne cares not how somebody dies, just so long as blood is spilled. So a character who kills 500 creatures will undoubtedly draw his eye even if those creatures were killed purely in self defense. I feel that the tracker is fine to use, however I can't see myself using it beyond the Crimson Rain adventure --as it seems to be developed specifically for the purposes of the Adventure--. I will more than likely use corruption to handle characters who act in an overtly violent manner.