There is no point transporting 5 Space Marines across the galaxy... if you are just going to throw them into pitched battles at a whim. This is why Space Marines are hoofed around 100 or 300 at a time minimum. But the inquisition isn't here to fight pitched battles. It's here to flush out the unseen enemy, enemies that might be equally capable of dispatching squads of normal troops as a Space Marine but more difficult to find.

I seriously doubt that it's common practice to take a planet with 1 company of Marines, I don't remember a situation where that's the case and if pressed to or if they encountered a backward world like ours (which incidentally has 194 individual armies arrayed against each other, not a situation that is likely in the future) I'm sure they wouldn't imediately send there forces to every corner of the world to kill every soldier on the planet when they could pounding the planet into oblivion with the future arsenal of several mile long space craft while the Space Marines persue actual military objectives.

Regardless though, this isn't about fluff or realism or (lack there of) it's about gameplay. Games where you have no chance of failure are not fun for long, games which don't have any better gear than the stuff you start with take a huge part away from the players, and games where you spend all night in one small combat are taking away from much better oportunities.

Face Eater said:

Also: taking a world means usually shifting the balance on that planet. It's like if the Astartes arrived 1939 on Terra, they'd be able to immediately shift the balance against the 3rd Reich to a position of hopeless. Italy breaks away from Nazi Germany and inside the Nazi regime there is huge dissent because Himmler and Goering and others don't want to face certain death in the form of the Astartes. This leads to the Nazi regime collpasing, etc.

That is much more realistically the significance of the Astartes. Doesn't make for an as good action movie as storming the Reichskanzlei and putting a Bolt round through Hitler's skull first hand though. That's why we dispose of realism in sufficient quantities frequently.

Alex

AluminiumWolf said:

Well, honestly the Marines were never flat out meant for that sort of pitched battle. Or rather, if they end up having to attack a world of Earth's Size (Which would be a garden world, and probably a 'small' hive world). They wouldn't approach it by meeting the collected armies of Earth head on, they'd approach it like the Special Forces they are. And that means surgical strikes against leaders.

Think about it, a Marine is the ultimate projection of Force in this universe. Infantry with near Tank durability and firepower. When say that they need to wipe out 13 divisions a piece? Not really. Instead they need to wipe out the planetary governor, then some of his generals and any others who step up to take over. At this point things are in such confusion, and the forces and people are so terrified of the Emperor's angels of death, that they are likely ready to surrender. And even if not, they're now going to be faced with a siege situation where their fields get bombarded from orbit (If the whole Chapter is there, that means a substantial battlefleet capable of leveling the planet from orbit). Nor would they likely ever be faced with all those divisions at once to entail each one needing to wipe out 13 divisions, instead they'd be surgically wiping out a few groups at a time (Likely using companies to do so)

Further, when you say 'each marine' in your math, you forget they still have quite a few vehicles and dreadnoughts and such to call on too. Not that those will change too much, but they're going to change the math slightly. Especially combined with whatever initial orbital bombardment their was (Which likely targetted military infrastructure to begin with)

But ultimately it's not right to consider even a full Marine Chapter in terms of conventional warfare, because that's not how they'd fight. Instead they need to be seen as Navy SEALS and Delta Force Capable of movie like feats on par with and exceeding Rambo and the likes.

And that's just the ones who fight fair, groups like the Raven Guard would probably be engaging in even more subversive hit and run stuff, terrorist style attacks, etc. Imagine what a group like Al-Qaeda could do if they were space marines... Or the White Scars, who'd be doing the hit and run thing and kicking it up a few notches (BAM!) more.

Basically, the point of MArines is they will always have the initiative, not those planetary millions. The marines will choose every battle. They will only be in places they will win, and they have the durability to survive most traps set against them. How you may ask? Because there is not many of them. It's hard to use the sort of firepower necessary to stop them in the sort of situation you can ambush them. And if the enemy congregates? Well, that just makes them easy targets for the Battle Barge and Strike Cruiser's bombardment cannons.

Finally, keep in mind there are plenty of cases inthe recent decade of US or other "Modern" armies' special forces units of small size holding off and defeating much, much larger enemy forces. So if a dozen SEALS can do it, imagine what the "MArines" could do.

Dulahan said:

Huh? That's what the Legions were for. Sure: Not taking out the *whole* of the planet's armies, but dealing with targets that were too tough for conventional troops to take. You send in the Marines to take out the massive fortification that's blocked an advance for three weeks. You send them into the line of battle to smash a hole in it for exploitation. That's the work of shock troops.

Granted, the numbers are lower and use has evolved, but that's what they were originally for, and that's still mostly what they do. That's why they're on the table facing tanks. The novels see them often involved in massive, pitched battles of attrition, in the thick of it. They don't get involved in long attrition campaigns so much now because 1,000,000 men is a pretty thin spread and its inefficient to use them in long campaigns, but they were certainly never intended to work as light, small strike forces and they tend not to: Turning up normally in hundred-strong or more contingents. Remember that Horus' trademark move was a decapitation attack on a foe's command and control. That infers that it wasn't what the other Legions were all doing... at least not all the time, though it makes sense to use your heaviest infantry to strike the heart of the foe, because it'll be a tough fight.

In bygone days the cracking of the hardest nuts was the work of heavy infantry, then grenadier and 'guard' quality troops, stormtroopers, panzer grenadiers... heavy infantry. Heavy mechanised infantry, in fact. That's not 'special forces work' in our world. That's the work of elite mechanised infantry, elite mobile infantry such as airborne or marine divisions, or perhaps T3 SF at the outside, in US parlance. You don't send a SEAL team to go and blast through a fortified bunker complex and blow up 30 tanks. What marines do on a routine basis (except for the Ravenguard, Deathwatch and the like, perhaps) is certainly not the kind of infiltration and small-unit work that our own SFs are involved with. Astartes might be 'the best of the best', but they are utilised as heavy mechanised and highly mobile infantry, rather than as light infantry special forces.

Siranui said:

That's true, at the start they were the only armed force of the Imperium, and they did take entire planets on their own, much of the Imperium infact in a very short time. But the key their that they were legion, The Ultramarines, for example were 250,000 strong at their peak and they pretty much attacked as one. In numbers like that, with vehicle and starship support in proportional numbers, it's more than possible to crush a planets resistance until it folds, which is long time before you've killed millions of troops. Especially seeing as they had primarchs leading them, for the most part, although they might not have gone for super blitzkrieg tactics like Horus's boys you had to know that they would still be moving towards a decisive victory.

In the modern Imperium it would be rare for Astartes to attack a planet on their own, probably rare for them even to be first on the scene. If they did have to make an assault on their own on any significantly defended world it would be a chapter scale undertaking. In particularly heavily resisted planets even multiple chapters.

A single company would engage in a hit and run, spoiling attack, taking out the valuable targets and air defences in readiness for the other forces to do the labour intensive clear up.

Of course the SEALS don't tend to spearhead in the conventional sense, which Marines can do. They certainly have more uses. I was just talking about how they'd do it on their own. And I was only ever talking about Chapters, not Legions. The Legions change things a lot. Because then you've got not only flat out 'line combat' units larger than current chapters, but you've got dedicated groups doing all those special forces things too. And there's going to be no army on the world capable of bringing the amount of firepower necessary to bear against all of them at once.

When they have support of the Guard. They can do all that and more. That's when you use them as Spearheads. That's when you use them to hold that one place that MUST be held at all cost (The important flank, the Gate, the center, whatever). That's when you put them where the fighting will be heaviest and having the most concentrated firepower will make the difference. On their own, sure they have ways. But with support is when they'll shine the most. Because that's when they can do the high risk stuff even the Guard's special forces cannot.

And I'll note even in the books where they're in pitched battles, it's either because they were cut off. Or they're still acting as spearheads and going for the absolute most difficult objectives. Or in some cases situations they're completely besieged (Rynn's World, the first Salamander's book)

I feel certain there should be a Scream and Leap option available to Marines, in which they find the densest concentration of enemies on a planet, drop pod in and start killing until they run out targets.

Like in Assassins Creed (the first one at least) - you CAN sneak around, stealthily clear out enemies and use the enviroment to come upon your target unawares. Or you can walk up to the front entrance and kill your way through the guards until they stop coming. Either way sends the appropriate message to your foes. And both methods should be open to Space Marines.

Because a hundred Marines who can genuinely outfight a planet in open warfare is a powerful fantasy for me.

As the makers of the upcoming Space Marine video game say:-

>>>>This is really about being that forceful hero, that confident character striding forth on the battlefield, being very conspicuous in bright blue and gold armour, being constantly surrounded by your enemies and having them know that you are coming and kind of having it strike fear in their hearts.<<<<

AluminiumWolf said:

I personally figure if your version was accurate the companies already in the Reach would have the war won and cleaned up within a year, but everyone plays differently and wants something different.

Simply use the existing rules and don't use the optional weapon stats, and if that still isn't strong enough give them some more armor and let them buy unnatural stats x3.

Face Eater said:

well, actually....

:-)

In the 3rd edition Space Marine codex (page 3) there is a page fluff piece of the White Panther chapter responding to an Inquisitor's request for aid. While it doesn't mention the size of the White Panther force, I doubt it would have been even half of the whole chapter, likely 100 to 300 (capacity on strike cruisers and battle barges respectfully). This space marine force then proceeds to attack and destroy the entire planets military force. Not to a man of course, but enough casualties and losses to essentially destroy it completely. Then goes on to kill the corrupt govoner the Inquisitor asked for help to get rid of. The Inquisitor in this bit of fluff goes on to say, gee it sure would be better if they had just assasinated the gov instead of taking out the entire fighting force on the planet. But, as he himself says, Space Marines believe, "each man must owe his loyalty to the Emperor before any other."

Which also brings in the aspect of Marines as terror and shock weapons, of course. Many Chapters go that route.

Although, if he'd have just wanted the gov. dead, he should maybe thought about asking for an assassin instead. Right tool for the job and all that, and Marines are a hammer, not a scalpel.

Siranui said:

There is a great example of this in the Imperial Armour Books, Siege of Vraks with Red Scorpions arriving in small numbers to create a breakthrough in the siege that the guards could not. The marines firepower, durability and the surprise factor of them just turning up (or drop podding in this case) was enough to change things, but just as the guard couldn't do it alone, the marines would have been overwhelmed without the guard then rushing into the breach to support them.

Well worth a read if you can get your hands on a copy.

They do look good, but my word; are they pricey!

Siranui said:

Good point, though the metaphor is a bit awkward since sure, in that case they were a 'hammer' solution. But in a massive battle with millions on each side, they become the scalpel that slices through and takes out a key objective.

And like I mentioned above, when a Marine force wipes out a planet's defenses? They are very likely using the orbital bombarment of their ships too. Bombardment cannons are -nasty- for that after all. I'd reckon the White Panther example had them wiping out the majority of the defense forces in the opening bombardment before the Marines ever touched ground. Only things under void shield protection survived. (And those that did? Well... that's another thing Marines do well, taking out those void shields and getting out. BOOM! All presuming a typically high tech defense force to begin with. If they were up against Modern Earth style forces (Or worse), it's doubtful anything but anti-tank weapons and nukes even had the capability to harm them. And also a planet's size can vary tremendously. It's possibly it was a planet with only a few million people living on it, especially if an Agri-world or something.

The whole strategy of 40k planetary invasions and defence really doesn't work, and it's generally best not to think about it too much, to my mind. Ships in low orbit should just win battles, and render large-scale ground conflict and centralised command structures completely moot, but for some reason, they don't!

Siranui said:

Actually, it's often said that they don't have the most accurate firepower, and it needs to be remembered in the Imperium, Human Lives are endless. Planetary resources aren't. So wiping out infrastructure can cause decades of economic woes in a system, if not sector. So it's often worth a few years of painstaking ground assault that will just damage it over full on bombardment that will utterly destroy it.

Also, in the books it seems pretty common that ground based void shields are more than enough to stop planetary bombardment.

Whatever the case, you're certainly right that they rarely bother with bombardment other than the opening strikes in the fluff.

Siranui said:

Planetary defense weaponry would render low orbit out of the question, if you want to keep your ship intact. If you have any interest in keeping the ground in a usable condition you don't do orbital bombardment.

A lance strike is going to take out dozens of city blocks.

A macro-cannon strike is going to take out dozens of square miles.

Cities grow up where they are because thats the best place in the area for them to be. Turning one into a several mile wide crater won't help any if you intend to occupy the planet afterwards.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I believe Mr. Heinlein addressed this issue best in the 1959 novel 'Starship Troopers', and I've not seen it better put since.

There are a dozen different ways of delivering destruction in impersonal wholesale, via ships or missiles of one sort or another, catastrophes so widespread, so unselective that the war is over because that nation or planet has ceased to exist. What we do is entirely different. We make war as personal as a punch in the nose. We can be selective, applying precisely the required amount of pressure at the specified point at a designated time. We've never been told to go down and kill or capture all left-handed redheads in a particular area, but if they tell us to, we can. We will.
We are the boys who will go to a particular place, at H-hour, occupy a designated terrain, stand on it, dig the enemy out of their holes, force them then and there to surrender or die. We're the bloody infantry, the doughboy, the duckfoot, the foot soldier who goes where the enemy is and takes them on in person. We've been doing it, with changes in weapons but very litle change in our trade, at least since the time five thousand years ago when the foot sloggers of Sargon the Great forced the Sumerians to cry "Uncle!"

Source: Juan Rico, page 99

I am not currently using the revised weapons in my game. I bought the GM kit, so I'm not anxious to make several of the tables on the game shield useless.

Balodek said:

You get the bonus points for the Heinlein Quote.

40k, the table top game, is really designed to play out like WWII battles. Look at how the IG are structured, the British Army writ large.

I just started reading Horus Rising, and there is a spot where a company is sent in to crush the last of the rebels in a mountainous region. My first thought was, why don't they use some air strikes? Or at least use some of the Guard's fantastic artillery to pound the walls of that mountain stronghold?

On the other hand, with all our modern day tech, the ability to drop a missile on any building we want from 100+ miles away, and we are still slogging through the mountains of Afghanistan. Of course, those guys aren't in forts we can see from the air.

Dulahan said:

The White Panther story actually had the marines land on the planet immediatly after destroying the orbital defence station. They then proceeded to destroy the majority of the planets forces in ground engagements. Followed by the military's last stand at the Govenor's palace, which didn't help the planetary force in the end at all.

"Are the revised weapon statistics designed to get Space Marines killed?"

I'd say they are designed to force Space Marine characters to act like Space Marines, i.e. rely on intelligent tactics and co-ordinated teamwork to defeat numerically superior foes, rather than simply blunder foward and count on their weapon's basic firepower to do all the work; that's what Gun Servitors are for...

-And we've all heard the stories of Hive Tyrants (intended to be the deadliest foe this side of Titan-scale) being killed in a single round; I don't think any argument exists that this is in keeping with either the game designer's intent or the background of the 40K universe.

How come it is always people who don't have Space Marine avatars who don't mind Marines being nerfed?

AluminiumWolf said:

Hey, that's profiling! I've said I didn't like the nerfed bolters and what they did to poor Unrelenting Devastation, and I don't have a Space Marine avatar. 'Course, that's mostly because I'm too lazy to bother...

Siranui said:

Air power alone does not win battles. Look at the modern world today. The United States has the most powerful airforce in the world and an ability to project power which is second to none. However, they still need boots on the ground in order to occupy territory. The victory over the Taliban would not have been possible without the co-operation of the Northern Alliance. Look also what is happening in Libya. The coalition can bomb Kadaffi all they want, but unless they are willing to invest troops they will not be able to disloge his regime. Orbital bombardment should be seen as a force multiplier for an invasion force. However, some planets might surrender if faced with the possibility of bombardment (gunboat diplomacy)