I noticed the suggested stats for weapons in the new errata. I had the impression that they made the game more difficult for space marines. Their Bolters seem rather weak (about as strong as a Tyranid fleshborer), while Tau weapons seem extremely powerful. I know that this is a work in progress so the designers will have a chance to revise it. I imagine that they took one dice and averaged it to 5, and added it to a 1d10 dice. However, it seems that they did that for the marine weapons while possibly double counting the alien weapons.

Please advise if I am wrong, this was just the impression I got. Having a Tau Fire Warrior rolling 1d10 + 12 with Pen 4 seems to make them deadly in large numbers against Marines. Marines with 1d10 + 9 PEN 4 seem to have pop guns in comparison.

...I guess that they might need an errata for this errata...

That is a 3 damage difference.

A Tau fire warrior does not have the armor a Marine has, nor the Unnatural Toughness. So you see who is more deadly.

The difference - to me - is that before this errata, Astartes weapons (especially the basic equipment ones, i.e. (Heavy) Bolter) were too good . What good will it do for a Tau to do that much damage if he eats a shot of plasma which one-shots him ?

Also, remember, the bolter has tearing, so the 3 point difference is minimal, the big thing is the range difference (and I can't remember how useful gyro stabilised is in Deathwatch).

Whats interesting, is that the weapons seem more in line with table top actually, where Tau pulse rifles are indeed superior to bolters.

Do note that the Tau have taken a hit on RoF just like the bolter has. Still, generally speaking, the pulse rifle is going to be fired from a horde, and their BS is generally terrible anyway, so I don't expect them to be too terrible.

The tau pulse rifle is a scaled controlled plasma weapon, The tau are meant to be one of the best shooting races in the game, possibly THE best. and their weapon is better than the most basic rifle a space marine can own? yeah it should be. they definitely scaled up tau, and scaled back all bolter weapons, because before a heavy bolter could one shot anything, and a tau stealth suit with a burst cannon could barely harm any but the lowest level marine. a level 3 tech marine with 60 or so toughness and some bionic implants can have toughness 14. at level 4 they get artificer armour for T14 armour 12. at this point a burst cannon or a firewarrior cannot harm him. by comparison with that the tau can have their new guns

I agree with the others and feel this puts in more in line with table top and reduces the OMGBOLTERS!1 that came with the original RAW. The boltguns will still do 2-3 mag damage a turn, and the heavy 5-6 (+talents, abilities, and ammo) as the Tau armor and toughness didn't go up. It will require the GM to change up their encounters a smidge by reducing the magnitudes and overall number of enemies but whether or not this is a bad thing is debateable. Some folks like the movie marine 'my pc can kill an army' route, while others like the more gritty 'tough but killable pc' theory, and with the optional weapon rules we can have our cake and eat it too.

I am in the "novel marine" camp rather than tabletop. I have read a number of Dan Abnett books and I imagine Space marines destroying entire formations of lesser troops. The Tau are tougher than other races, but still fodder for a space marine assault. These revisions would seem to make the Marines rather weak and take away the mystique of them being the finest warriors in the galaxy. However, your points are well taken, It depends on the campaign and the flavor of the story.

I'll let you know how my next session goes (will be the first time applying the rules to the actual table), but I suspect that my kill team will still be able to make mincemeat out of lesser troops- the dev won't be killing a mag 100 horde in 3 seconds ever again but the enemies of the Empire will still die in droves

No, they are actually setup to provide a more fun game experience. One where things like Hive Tyrants are a threat. With the bolt weapons in the core rulebook, there were basically few opponents that could withstand bolter attacks. In fact, bolt weapons were so good you would be dumb to take things like plasma weapons. Watching Marines get 4 full-auto hits with every single burst gets old after awhile. Especially when you factor a heavy bolter in.

As far as novel marines, they still are. Against things like cultists (and even fire warriors) your minimum damage will cause a single wound, which causes 1 point of magnitude damage. So thus you can kill hordes of them without much effort. I've personally been running with house ruled weapons that are very similar to this and all my players feel the game is overall more fun because of it.

This, along with the fixed Righteous Fury, are the things Deathwatch needed most.

Agree with above. The changes seem to be focused on promoting more roleplay and less full-auto rapid fire into every enemy.

peterstepon said:

Marines can chew through Tau just as quickly. It's just now they need to respect the Tau's weaponry a little more. Which is fair enough, considering that -as previously stated- the Tau are supposed to have far better weaponry than the Imperium.

kenshin138 said:

I think nerfing the ROF of the Bolter has been too much. I still consider the root source of it lying in the Storm Bolter vs. Heavy Bolter match-up. A better way would have been keeping the ROF as it has been and adding to Storm quality that it doesn't double the hits against hordes only the to-wound attempts per hit.

And I'd renew my call to restrict Bolter Mastery to Basic and Pistol Bolt Weapons.

Alex

No, the Bolter was too powerful. It was the only weapon to have access to the really good specialty ammo (thus providing a great flexibility: Kraken for the tough/armored ones, Metalstorm to do 9 Magnitude Damages without too much pain, Hellfire for the incredibly tough ones that make you need RF to actually hurt them...). Compared to that, even plasma and melta weapons sucked.

So, your average basic weapon was much more interesting than the rest of the armory? And let's not even talk about the Heavy Bolter.

Now I feel that these ranged weapons have been drastically "nerfed" (though I would personaly say "brought to a bit more balance, maybe to their slight loss"...), but that makes the renown-requiring ones much more interesting. Therefore, tactical variety happens, allowing your team to take cool weapons, not stick to the basic gear because it is absolutely stronger than the rest.

By the way, Bolters still have Tearing. All you need now is a bit more BS to efficiently use it, not just the "average" 50-60 to get 4 rounds in the face of whatever comes up...

"Bolter Mastery" point taken, though.

I personally LOVE the new weapon rules. I wrote up a whole set that was very much similar to this before the errata came out and now I have some validation.

I just really enjoy that the choice between a Storm Bolter or a Plasma Gun is a legitimate one now. Spess Murheens can forgo their bolters for more varied and interesting weaponry now that they are no longer god machines that cost zero Req.

Here are my two thrones on the subject.

My belief is that Deathwatch should be the "Exalted" gameline of the 40K series. Keeping in line with the various books and literature of Space Marines, they are capable of heroic acts against hordes of enemies. The Imperium was forged because of a few legions of Space Marines which basically conquered the galaxy just prior to the Horus Heresy. Since the number of Space Marines was probably never more than a million (and maybe a few hundred thousand during the great crusade), they ought to be powerful. They are, afterall, the most iconic figures of the Warhammer 40K universe. I even recall during a webcast about Deathwatch where one of the game designers says that a Space Marine could basically destroy an entire division of ground troops (probably referring to our modern age). Here are my thoughts. My other benchmark is the Dawn of War game where the campaigns are based more on the novel Marine concept.

1/ Make the Space Marine weapons weaker, it seems to make everyone happy and add play balance

2/ Keep Tyranic weapons as they were before. Since Tyranids attack in the billions there is no reason each termagaunt should have a weapon that could harm a Space Marine. Their strength is numbers, it would be appropriate if they are armed with pea shooters.

3/ Keep Tau weapons as they were. Tau are powerful and I agree, but they should be much more powerful than imperial guardsmen, but still in fear of Space Marines

4/ Make Chaos Marines the deadly foe. Since Space Marines are the baddest guys in the galaxy, Chaos Space Marines should be their equals. No matter how tough the characters become, you should be able to xerox their stats and abilities, spraypaint a chaos sign on them, and send them as an equal adversary.

Again, just my thoughts.

Agree for tyanic weapons (or maybe even consider that these stats are to use for "elite" shooting troops, not for the basic crap).

Disagree for Tau: they ARE in fear of Marines. Of course they can deal great damage to them. But when the Marines get in Melee with the Tau...Slaughter begins. They are quite fragile, those little blue boys

Well, for the Chaos Marines, as you said, copy, paste, flavour and eight-branched stars, here you go.

peterstepon, I said the same thing yesterday about looking at DW like the "Exalted" of space RPGs. I'll likely try to find a nice compromise between the two weapon sets: give bolters back a bit of their oomph, make the poor auto weapons fully automatic again, and weaken/balance some of the other weapons (I've always felt the Omnissian Axe should be a bit better, or at least not completely outclassed by the other melee weapons). I don't know that there's a perfect weapon stat set, but as long as it works well for my campaign I can deal with it.

The Tyranid weapon increases were needed. Basically 'Nids were little to no threat to Marines with anything other than hand-to-hand. While most think of Tyranids as only hand-to-hand, various stories/background/etc. make note that their ranged attacks are damaging and can hurt Marines. However, without the boost players could basically laugh at any and all shooting. Tyranid Warriors are Elite, they are supposed to be an even match one-to-one for Marines. Prior to the changes, they simply weren't.

Also, the comment that this should be the "Exalted" of 40kRPG...I guess I don't get where this comes from. How anybody could think that it isn't this is beyond me. Your starting character is basically immune to small-arms fire, has access to powerful wargear and equipment, is well trained, has good stats, etc. Compared to Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, you are "Exalted".

Brand, bolters still kick ass, and they can get nasty ammo...They are just not silly anymore.

kenshin : don't forget Hordes. The thing is, 1d10+something with a non-0 PEN is enough to hurt a Marine when shot by a Mag > 20 Horde. That's why the basic weapons of the 'nids didn't really need an upgrade: the 'gaunts are 'gaunts, they are in no way Marines killer.

Though I'll admit for Warriors and the likes, an upgrade was cool and needed.

Sadly Tyranid melee weapons have not been updated. This means that Scything Talons have the same Pen value no matter who you are, and when you're putting Tyranids up against Marine vehicles you'll quickly find that Tyranids simply cannot kill vehicles in melee. We played a Dreadnought in a session not long ago, and the Tyranids might as well have surrendered.

Tyranid melee needs +1D10 damage vs vehicles for every Size Trait above standard, or even Hulking.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

I don't doubt that the 'nids as written up so far can't beat vehicles, but are you using the double Pen ability from Final Sanction? I'm eager to see what the Xenos book gives us in terms of nasty, upper tier baddies to use.

Stormast said:

I'm not saying that bolters are necessarily bad now, but the iconic weapons of the Space Marines should be a step above the basic weapons that the Tyranids grow. I agree that they were too strong in the beginning, and I actually feel that the best weapon originally was the regular ol' Bolter, not the Heavy Bolter - able to use one-handed, cheaper special ammo, access to the fire selector switch (thus, easy switching between different ammo types), and a full auto burst that led to tons of damage and almost no wasted ammo (one of the HBs drawbacks). Not saying the HB was disgustingly effective, but the regular Bolter was better, IMO.

This bolter rebalance is long overdue. When someone asks "why would I ever want a plasma gun or a melta when I can just shoot everything to death with my starting gun?" there is a problem.

peterstepon said:

I dunno. It is that kind of enthusiasm I want to see in my Space Marine products.

AluminiumWolf said:

That one again?

That quote will live on in infamy though. Single-handedly, modern-day infantry division. With ease .
No disrespect to you though, Wolf, it's just that I consider this an example of over-the-top marketing speech by Alan Merrett. Com'on.

Alex

Brand said: