In what expansion will Johnny one-eye be released?

And when are the gorillas begin released?

I think Johnny one-eye is for store events only available in America and customer services fail to repond when questioned about them

And I guess the gorilla's are July/August for when the Operation Seelow is released at the end of June.

Nope if you read the articles about the dust game night it says they are preview models but, they have not released when they are going to be released to the public. The gorillas are funny bc FFG keeps messing up there webstie with this stuff I'm not sure whether we should be seeing them b/c there is no announcement of them like they do all the other models. My guess them and the Grim Reapers will come out this summer. I think they are slowing down the production line b/c if they went the track they were going all the models would be out by this time next year.

The gorillas and Space Marines have to be released this summer as they would need to be part of the Cyclone campaign especially as their leaders are in the set and they need to release more than just light walkers for Cyclone.

Incoming transmission from Black Sheep:

FFG indeed stated that both Heroes; "Johnny One-Eye" and "Stefan" would be released in a later expansion. STOP

Both Allies and Axis Spec Ops troops will be released within 7-10 days as they are on their way to stores as we speak. STOP

Operation: SeeLowe, Light Panzer Walker, and Light Assault Walker are said to arrive Spring 2011 (and as we all know it is Spring until June 22nd). STOP

Gorillas and Grim Reapers having an incoming date of Q3 2011. The gorillas will go nicely with the hero "Marcus" which we will see in Operation: SeeLowe as the Grim Reapers will go nicely with their hero from the same expansion. STOP

It has been reported that the Alien faction will be at GenCon 2011. No word on if this will be where they will be released for sell or just on display. STOP

End of transmission

Game on;

-John-

P.S.

Baa Baa Baa

According to this site's "Upcoming" section, the gorillas, Grim Reapers, and both light walkers are all listed as "on the boat" along with Operation SeeLowe. I would guess the will all be out close to one another. My question is how long will it take to see the premium editions after the normal versions are released.

-Jeff

thank you for all your answers to my questions.

Btw, somewhat of a side note, but I know how people have been mentioning (even in here) the lack of an announcement article for the Grim Reapers/Gorillas

Look what google dragged up http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=1&efcid=2&efidt=485052

Though I have to say...look at those Army Point values. Do you think they're going to switch over to exclusively Tournament Rules now?

i would hope not , but you have to look at the hero card which uses the basic points cost , and the size of the point cost circle , its huge .

i would suspect that its been altered to cover the points value until FFG releases them so that peopl dont kepp buying proxie figs from other companies and useing them as substitues . i gotta say , as an axis player i dont like the look of the armor 3 hero , but that squad looks pretty sweet in the pic .

Leutnant_Manfred said:

Thanks for the link!

With so many of us guessing about new DT products, release dates, army points issue etc and generally increasing the amount of traffic in the DT forum relating to these questions, I wonder if FFG is enjoying making us 'suffer' by keeping mum? Sadist.......

good link! and they might as well put the expanded points cost on the cards since the original point system is a no brainer for the most part. will allow slightly more varied forces that way too.

blkdymnd said:

actually , there are plenty of us that dont use the TOURNY point system , and it not "official" but "official tourny" points this far .

the basic points system is more easily approachable to non minis gamers and minis gamers alike , making in easier to get new players into the game that dont have a back ground in WH40K or warmachine .

as the game expands , and we see new unit types , they will become more varied just based on the options chosen . part of the lack of varied forces is because this game has been out for 8 months ( or longer if you consider tha GENCON release ) and we only have 5 squads for each side ( one of which you can only have one of in an army ) and medium walkers . where as games like WH40K seem more varied because each army has 10 or 15 squads and walkers and several tanks tanks and commanders , etc that are released more quickly when the armies are released . and most games like WH40K have that same procedure . they may only release a couple new units a month , but the initail releases for each army have more options and are followed up on more rapidly .

and as arkangels regional qualifier experince shows ( 4 attendies) , there are plenty of people NOT playing in tournies compared to the actual number of people buying the game . and that regional qualifier is one of only 5 , so it si completely possible that the national championship will be representative of the combined experience of as little as 20 participants .................................... or possibly even less .

Just adding on to Kris's post with the ppl complaining and him comparing it to Warhammer and 40k remember even 40k started off with only like 3 factions and small ammount of models.

@Kris: The only slight issue with the standard point system is that you have Gunners at 2 points and Panzer Killers also 2 points. with the upgraded weapon, the PK's should cost more, but with such a small point sysem, its harder to do that.

IF the sole purpose of the game were to destroy armor2+ walkers then yes i would agree that they are better in the game , but again it goes back to a knife in a gun fight .

every unit is just a valuable as any other unit when put in its intended role . to have the bot hunting , you lose UGL's or panzerfausts AND a submachinegun . so you lose alot of firepower and also decrease the number of range 4 weapons in the squad .

you give up potential attack rolls to favor armor hunting , and reduce the antipersonel strength to focus on ant armor .

its a great idea if your opponent is only fielding tanks , but the bot hunting units dont fare so well against other infanrtry . againt tanks , yes they are a good choice and would be worth more than a gunner squade , against infantry though they are less effective and would be worth less than 2 .

i mostly play axis , though i do have some allies for when i play demos . i my self dont own any panzerkillers or bot hunters , i dont see the point in losing so much potential firepower when the battle grenadiers are a better middle of the road squad . that is a better fit . though if i were an allies player , i would buy/use ONLY one bot hunting squad to plop rosie into because having 3 bazookas and an extra 4 life is the only way i can see haveing such a specialized squad .

the only squad i have bough outside of starters is recon grenadiers , they are great at hunting down specialized infanttry squads , and while some may balk at the idea of having recon squads ouyt there since they dont really have good anti armor abilities , after my enemies infantry is gone , they make great barriers to force my opponent to either waste actions to shoot them from his walkers or allow me to force him to maneuver his walker wher i want them , because remenber , walkers cant move through infantry , so recon squads are still useful even after they have hunted my opponents infantry to the end .

and while i may in the future buy some p[anzer killers , i would only use them as battle grenadiers , unless the axis came out with a similar hero that i would plop one panzer killers unit out for .

I agree with Chris, just because you add a panzerschrek it doesn't mean the unit is better overall, are the panzer killers actually any better than Battle Grenadiers, or even recon grenadiers, against tanks? Think about it, first time you are in range the Recon and Battle G's get 3 dice attack, the Panzer K's 2 dice, any 2 hits will kill a Mech, it might be better to get that extra shot in to kill in 1 attack, than not kill it outright with just 2 attacks.

Sure the Panzer Killers, might be better with the longer range and able to fire more than once, providing they don't get destroyed by the mechs return fire of course.

I also agree with Kris and his favourite unit, the Recon Grenadiers and these are the cheapest according to the tourney points! I just love these guy's as they capable of taking on any Allied unit rather than specialising against one and almost useless against others. The Panzer Killers will be dead meat if facing the BBQ squad, but the Recon can cause some serious hurt against them.

I have to say, Battle Grenadiers vs. Tank Killers is very little difference. Even Battle Grenadiers vs. Laser Grenadiers isn't that big of a deal.

The major weakness of the current Army Point system, where (correct me if I'm wrong) infantry are based on armor level, actually has to do with squads with a low number of soldiers in them.

From what I can tell/guess of the cards for the Spec. Op Grenadiers in this picture...
http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/client/Products/ProdimageLg/DTP013.jpg

...each squad of two soldiers cost 2 points each. This is the same as any of the health 5 squads from the core game or the first expansions. Now, for a sniper team that has the ability to pick it's target and hit on a blank, I could probably see it as fair. Just pair them with a hero for survivability.

But at the cost of 2 AP, the Observer team is practically worthless. It's two health make it extremely vulnerable to...anything. It has no special weapons, and it's only special ability is to call in Artillery Strikes. Which, if I understand correctly, not only leaves the squad out in the open (because their turn immediately ends) but unless you have two artillery walkers it can only be used every other round (since the walker uses it's entire action with indirect fire, it must spend the next round reloading). Their weakness reflects in the tournament points: a mere 5 compared to most squads 20, give or take. Only a very skilled (or lucky) player would be able to protect them long enough to use the ability more than once or twice.

Unless obsrver squads get some really good special rules, I can't see them being worth 2pts either, might as well take the command squad.

Recon Grenadiers do an average of 2.67 hits (4.44 if sustained) against an armour 2 infantry unit at range 4. If you use the Panzerfaust as well this goes up to 3.67 (6.11) and also hits an armour 4 tank for 1.00 hit (1.67 if sustained) doing 2 (3.33 ave.) damage at range 2.

Panzer Killers do 1.67 (2.78 sustained) hits against infantry or 0.67 (1.11 sustained) hits against the current walkers for 2 (3.33 ave. sustained) damage at range 3.

Battle Grenadiers are actually slightly better than PKs [ 2.33 (3.89) against infantry or 1.00 (1.67) for 2.33 (3.89) damage against walkers] if you use the Panzerfaust as well, but again at range 2.

In my experience there is a world of difference between getting to range 3 and range 2 - e.g. loss of sustained attack - but you may think otherwise.

FYI: Laser Grenadiers do 2.49 (4.15 sustained) against infantry and 0.50 (0.89) hits for 1.00 (1.66 sustained) average damage against walkers.

Obviously in all these the average damage is only comparative - in reality it is digital rather than analogue and jumps in steps of 2 or 3. This probably means that Laser Grenadiers are underpowered by these calculations (which I only calculated to 4 iterations - I'm not a madman!) and can potentially pull out huge numbers.

The beast is, of course, the BBQ squad hitting for 5.67 (9.44 sustained) against a 5 man armour 2 infantry squad and 2.00 (3.33 sutained) hits for 4.67 (7.78) damage using flamer and demo charges against an armour 4 walker, all at range 1. Is having to get to range 1 that much of a disadvantage, though, for this Fast unit?

Interestingly - Warmachine/Hordes players will note the dramatically simplified points structure in Mk II over the original games - specifically avoiding futtery spare points left over when army building.

I would price the Observer squads at 1 point unless they had uprated cover rules. This latter would reflect their historical role where they would remain hidden to call in artillery strikes and disengage from the enemy when encountered. Perhaps "miss save" for soft cover and immunity to range 2+ weapons or some disengage rule when in hard cover

this is a game where every square of range makes a huge difference .

and despite all the discussion of statistics , but it all boils down to the reality that each unit has apurpose , and when used in that role , will outshine other units that were designed for other purposes , and you can look at averages all you want , but i have seen the dice fail or suceed epicly all to often , the statistics dont really apply when game mechanics come into play , because you wont get to roll the dice enough times for that unit to make the statistics play out . to get those averages , the squads would need to live a HECK of a lot longer than the 8 or fewer turns most games last to roll the dice enough to get those averages .

this afternoon i played a 30 point game , i took axis , my opponent allies , i watched his BBQ squad with bazook joe roll a sustained attack splitting fire between a squad and a walker . even with sustained , he ONLY hit with ONE demo charge out of all the rolls and rerolls , the averages didnt play out , and i didnt let the squad live long enough to get enough rolls to redeem itself , and because i can count to 3 , i was able to counter his moves earlier in the game and with his other BBQ squad so their speed was neutralized .

the biggest failing in see with the tourny point system is that they seem to asign a higher point value to weapons that can hurt a vehicle , and as i said earlier , if destroying walkers was the only purpose of the game , that is if when one teams walkers are destroyed , the game ends , then yes anti armor ability is worth more .

but thats not the sole purpose of the game . you do have to deal with infantry , and unlike alot of other games that have uber weapons that bast everything to bits , wepons work differently based on what they are attacking such as an 8.8 , range U , rolling 7 hits against an armor 4 walker , potentially killinig it out right in one roll , vs only rolling 4 against infantry .

and right now , all the squads are clones , they all have the same armor , they all have the same number of wounds , the only real differece is the weapons , and how does having a bazooka or 2 really make the squad worth more than a recon squad in one on one combat .

this isnt WH40K where EVERY army and EVRY squad has been cheesed out with special abilities and loads of weapons and tons of figures , with different armor values and types and weapons , and , and , and ................... . and even with all those different points values , i hear alot of complaining at the game store and see rants online about how one army or another is rediculously broken because they have all sorts of abilities and are under costed . consider this . alot of players and explayers of the other various minis games have atleast one ( if not several) armies that they consider broken , if the points values in those games were really accurate , nothing would be broken , because their points would represnt their abilities , so nothing would be broken .

let me give you this example , get a buddy and have him take 200 "tourny"points of recon grenadiers , now YOU take 200 "tourny" points of gunners , NOTHING ELSE , and play it out . when its just infantry to infantry , the recon has a big advantage just based on that one square of range , and the extra dice the squad rolls , and when you look at the rediculously lower cost of recon units , so they get more of them than you do gunner squads , its just gets worse .

NOW , try it over again with 16 points of recon vs 16 points of gunners . while the recon still has an advantage based on the number of dice they are rolling , they get fewer squads . in this instance the biggest advantage is that the recon grenadiers are designed to hunt infantry , and in this example where they are filling their intended roll and would be worth more than their 16 " tourny " points .

ask your self , if the ONLY units in the entire game were the gunners/battle grenadiers and the recon squads , which wouold you take to fill your points ? so why is it important to up point anti armor units and ignore anti infantry units when infantry make up such a big part of the game ?

again , the tourny points ONLY seem to imply the ability to damage tanks , and dont take into account that even units that DONT have antiarmor weapons can still be used to herd walkers around the field allowing you to essentially make them into mobile tank traps .

THAT is a big part of why i prefer the basic points cost because in this game , with its mechanics , the basic points really are applicable when you pick and choose units based on the role they will play , and not try cramming a square peg into a round hole .

GrandInquisitorKris said:

I agree completely. The stats were there to give comparisons only. I statistically "proved" that Laser Grenadiers were the worst Axis unit - but which unit did I buy a second one of? Laser Grenadiers - because they are cool and can dish out the damage. Bucking the probabilities is one of the most fun aspects of the game.

Last time I played: General Assault, as the Axis defending, I ran my Laser Grenadiers up to a tank trap on the edge of the central tile (two turns). It then took fire from: Recon Boys, BBQ Squad twice (once with Sustained attack), Hot Dog twice , Mickey and Gunners over the next 3 turns. My opponent was not having a good day with the dice (especially those flamethrowers) and only managed to kill 4, but the squad was down to Hans der Werfermensch only. He then ran back to his deployment line to catch Joe (down to one wound) and his remaining 2 Gunners as they broke through the wall (turn 7) and ran to the touch line to claim the win. Hans opened up with sustained fire from the Laser Werfer: Hit, Hit, Hit, Miss for three wounds killing Joe and the unit and giving the win to me on turn 8.

In the same game Mickey wasted Manfred and his Recon Grenadiers (10 wounds!) in one turn as they manoeuvred to range 2 and then ducked casually back round a corner away from Ludwig and his twin brother Ludwig.

i agree with your statistics analisys , bu t i have heard people who ONLY use statistics , and i have seen alot of statistics that none of them seem to match .

i simply thought it ncessary to point out ( and i dont think i did it as well as i would have liked) to the people who focus on statistics , that statistics require a set number of rolls to reach the results , and in this game , you dont get to mke that many rolls to reach the end result .

and that the statistics dont apply in every situation .

the tourny points rely on values set down based on a specific percieved value . in games like WH40k , rocket lauchers can have different types of ammo for attacking infantry and tanks , so that yes they have a high kill potential value regardless of target . in DUST tactics bazookas are less effective against infantry than they are against tanks , so the higher values only apply if you are attacking a tank . but the los of 1 range makes them even less effective against infantry , which make up about half tha game , so in reality , the points even out .

the only way the tourny points apply is if the sole purpose of the game is to kill armor , and nothing else . so in a game where little or no armor is taken , or the goal isnt outright assault , you would have to reset the values of each unit based on the goal and forces taken which would require a whole slew of sets of tourny points based on each individual scenario , for them to be accurate .

the basic points values represent that all just fine .

Although I agree with most of what you say Chris you are showing examples to proove your argument, try another, an army of Recon Grenadiers V Recon Rangers. The Rangers are totally outclassed by the Grenadiers and then add in a Walker to either side. If Axis lose their walker, no problem they still have a bucket load of panzerscreks to take out the Allied Mech. But the other way round and Allies lose their mech - they lose the game as they have nothing to take out a mech. And this scenario has happend on to many occaisions for my buddy, he alway's seem to have only the Recon Rangers left and me a mech.

So, although I don't uses them, the tourney points might just balance out the forces. But if players field balanced forces, you don't really need to as things will balance out over an entire army, but as soon as a player starts power-gaming the 2/4pt system will probably fail.

BTW. Fluff says the recon rangers use their speed, but they are not Fast, if they were they might be a better option.

but MM your example proves my point . yes when you add in a walker the recon loses , because thats not their porpose (though they still can be used as mobile tank traps )

i wouldnt go so far as to say the recon grenadiers are safe against vehicles , they only have 3 SINGLE USE panzer fausts , and would need to hit with 2 of them to kill a tank , which you cant count on . yester day i had manfred in a recon squad , used his assault ability to get them into range and fired 4 panzer fausts , NONE hit , and manfreds squad quickly took heavy casualties . you need lots of them to hope to kill tanks

the recon boys may not have anti vehicle weapons , but the UGS are a help in clearing out infantry since they ignore cover . so in reality , when opperating in their role as infantry hunters , they excel a little better than the recon grenadiers .

in my example of facing off against infantry recon wins and battle grenadiers lose . in THAT example , recon would have a highr tourny point value if the goal were to kill infantry (which make up so much of this game )

in your example , yes having a battle grenadier or gunner squad is better .

but both examples are extreems that prove my point :

if the sole purpose of the game is to kill infantry , then recon is worth more than its tourny points value .

if the sole purpose of the game is to kill armor , then the battle grenadiers and bot hunting squads are worth more ................ which is the way it is currently set up .

if the goal of the game is to fight both infantry and vehicles , and for players to make choices and excercise judgement then similar units would be about the same points cost , and chosen for their respective armies by the players based on their individual goal for each battle .

at this point , all the squads are very similar : same move , same armor , same life points , same size . the only difference is the weapons and a special ability on a couple . when used for their intended puspose , NOT JUST attacking armor or infantry , they are each worth 2 points because they each operate equaly well .

add or subtract armor , and then you have a new point value to base it on for similar units .

add in lots of other abilities or factors and pooints can change again .