So, with the current rules the RT righteous fury seems a bit complicated, especially concerning the 'extra damage dice' instead of 'extra d10' (I think DH and DW use extra d10). And somewhere in the forum there has been a discussion about it.

With current (from the core book) righteous fury, Pulse Rifle seems great (2d10++, if one of them rolled a 10 trigger RF, if succeeds extra 2d10++, repeat and repeat). Personally I'd opt for the extra d10s.

Next question is about the 'may swap a damage dice with DoS' rule (p245 core?). I'd assume that in case of Pulse Rifle, we can only swap one dice of them (if we want) with DoS from BS. What if we use Full-Auto Bursts, and deals 4 hits? Can we swap 1 die from each hits, or we can only swap a single die from all of the damage dice?

Comments?

1 die result be swapped for the Degrees of Success per attack roll . Note also that per RAW, you can cause immediate Righteous Fury if you're able to increase the Degrees of Success to 10 or more. Somewhat concerning.

DW actually uses the same RF idea with the stock rules.

A space marine bolter has 3d10 drop lowest (A wsingle 10 triggers RF). No need to reroll BS for RF because DW have a talent to ignore said need for a BS roll against Xenos.

Instant death to maaaannnyyy boss enemies.

Many people changed RF to normal exploding dice, any 10 lets you roll another d10.

one guy actually had an anecdote, where he instashotted the have tyrant, and his GM let a Carnifex appear out of thin air (not planned in the adventure), simply because boss fights shouldnt be that easy. The player stopped rolling when he had done 150+ damage to the Carnifex.

2 Nids, 2 bullets. Space Marines do not care how big said creature actually is.

p245 of the Rogue Trader core book states that a "natural 10" can give a chance of righteous fury. The DoS swapped in is definately not a natural 10 so it cannot trigger RF.

The Deathwatch core book does use those RF rules, but the DW errata changes this to the far more sane +1D10 aka Dark Heresy.

The only thing NATURAL means is that's what your dice show. Example: If you're using a 1d10+2 damage weapon, you roll an 8, total damage 10, that is not a natural 10. However if you roll a 10, total damage 12, that's a natural 10. With the DoS rule you're replacing a dice with your DoS, and if that just happens to be 10, then... well, you roll the dice over so that 10 is facing up. Natural 10.

WhiteLycan said:

That would be an unnatural 10 since the die didn't fall on 10 to begin with.

About the Righteous Fury:

Let's say we assume we use Pulse Rifle. And assume each BS test is a success. By the current rules of RT, if any of the 2 dice (damage is 2d10+4) rolled a natural 10, trigger RF. And the RF deals extra damage dice (extra 2d10+4), and if any of the 2 dice is a natural 10, repeat. And repeat (each is 2d10+4, or rolling 2 dice thus increasing 'chance' of natural 10). Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Now about accurate weapon. let's assume we have the 2d10 bonus. Do they add to 'damage dice' (thus making the 'damage dice' is 3d10)?

For me it is much logical to simply adds 1d10, instead of 2d10+4 or 3d10+5, where each damage die can trigger further RF.

About DoS

I think it is quite logical to assume we can only swap one (a single) die only for each attack, not each hit. But still waiting some more clarifications here.

Decessor said:

Ahh nice to know they put it into the errata pdf.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Come on guy, the player just rolled one hundred or more points below their BS. I think its safe to say that what they were aiming at simply no longer exists, having been turned into a fine red mist. I don't care what the RAW say. If I were GMing and a player rolled 10+ DoS, I don't care if he's fighting freaking Abaddon, its game over for that target.

WhiteLycan said:

Cypher survives. He only needs to roll a 4+ on 3D6. Chaos gods to the rescue.

Clearly this is a job for Mathhammer!

The mean damage a pulse rifle deals without righteous fury is 14, since it is 2d10+3.

Using the Rogue Trader rules and assuming that every hit is confirmed the mean damage becomes: x = 13 * 0.81 + .19 (18.5 + x); x = 17.34

Now if that becomes an extra +1d10 rather than a full damage roll, we get a mean damage of: x = 13 * 0.81 + .19 (18.5 + y); y = 0.9*5 + 0.1(10+y); y = 6.11; x = 15.21

If you only have a 70% chance to confirm that drops to 16.20 for the RT rule and 14.83 for the DW one.

Does that make the DH and DW rule better than the RT one? I have no idea. But I figured with some more concrete numbers you could make a more informed decision.

@moribund:

but I thought the chance of a single d10 to trigger RF (if it rolls natural 10, which is 10%) is lower than multiple d10s to trigger RF (if two dice are used then the chance should be around 19% (?) ). Or it has been included in the equations? and the damage itself (between 1d10 vs 2d10+4) is quite different (mean damage of 5.5(?) and 13).

based on that thoughts, I draw conclusion that RT's RF would be... much deadlier?

@Telosse,

Having played it both ways, I recommend house-ruling Righteous Fury to the sane DH / errata'd DW +1d10. I made the mistake of using the Rogue Trader rules as written when I started my campaign and had to change it. Weapons with multiple d10's tend to RF a lot and often. Pulse rifles have a 19 in 100 chance. But, it's the heavy weapons (a xenofilament grenade + grenade launcher in my case) that are truly broken. They'll RF about every other shot, and do high two to low three digit damage when they do.

Cheers,

- V.

The RT rule is deadlier, and more so for multi-die weapons. For a pulse rifle the Rogue Trader rule deals 17.28 damage versus the 15.16 damage for the +1d10 rule (I made a minor error in my original calculation). A hellgun on the other hand does 10.56 damage with the RT rule and 10.11 with the +1d10 rule.

It's a significant difference, but not overwhelming as an average for a one or two die weapon. It does lead to occasional spectacular results; the first time I fired a gun in the campaign I'm playing, my maximal plasma pistol did over 90 damage.

It does get ridiculous with things like lascannons, however. A lascannon has 41% chance to righteous fury. So with the Rogue Trader rule it deals an average of 63.51 damage as opposed to the 40.00 damage for the +1d10 rule.

The confirmation roll for each iteration of righteous fury moderates this difference in rules, since these numbers assume every confirmation roll succeeds.

If you are curious how I came up with 41%:

5

∑ ((5 choose x)*(1/10)^x*(9/10)^(5-x))

x=1

That finds the odds of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 tens and sums them.

I used the RT rules for RF when I ran that game and it generally worked out. At least it did, until the later stages where every party member had at least one weapon doing horrendous damage and/or firing multiple shots. It wasn't overly ridiculous but it did make combat very vicious (remember, at least some NPCs get RF too).

With DW, that version of RF breaks down completely. Between base damage, massive WS/BS, automatic confirmation against xenos and the many other bonuses that SMs accumulate, weapons like the basic bolter can one-shot the toughest enemies in the game. The heavy bolter is an engine of total destruction, far beyond even the background/novel marine portrayals (which I use for reference). And then you come to Chaos Space Marines. Frankly, one-shot-and-they're-dead fights are boring and fate points will likely be burned for no good reason. I would have used the +1D10 version for my campaign regardless of errata judging by the numbers.

The Righteous Fury should only be one additional d10, and if that is a "10", then yet another one.

This is how it works in Dark Heresy and in Deathwatch (after errata I think).

And I belive it was in the Errata thread on the Rogue Trader forum where a response from one of the writers, forgot which, said that they intended to errata RT aswell to be the same as DH and DW, as in, one additional d10.

Thats the way we play it, and it works quite well. Prevents weapons with several d10's to get loads of Righteous Fury on every other roll.