A quick rules question, one I've not seen addressed anywhere else (and one my players insisted on an official ruling for):

The question is about the Bureaucracy Strategy Card and the Stage 1 Objective that states: "I controlled Mecatol Rex for the entire Strategy and Action Phase of this round." If you have controled Mecatol Rex since the beginning of the turn, and set off Bureaucracy during one of your turns during that round, can you qualify for the objective?

Two possibilities: (a) The objective implies "up to that point" when it says "entire Action Phase of this round", and Bureaucracy can do its job in scoring mid-round VPs....

or

(b) The objective implies "the entire Action phase that has and will happen this round", and Bureaucracy cannot override that just because you're scoring in the middle of the round instead of during the Status phase.

Thanks, I looked around for the answer to this but found nothing- it's not a common interaction, I think. If I'm out of line or the answer IS buried someplace in the FAQ, please let me know and point it out, and I'll be grateful for it.

I don't see anything in the FAQ either, so if you really want an official ruling, you'll have to contact FFG directly.

As far as my personal opinion goes, I'd say he cannot claim that particular objective with Bureaucracy halfway through the Action phase. Claiming objectives in general requires that the condition stated be true at the time it is claimed. Obviously, this particular objective cannot be true until the Action phase is over and you've had control of MR the whole time.

That said, Bureaucracy can still be useful for that player in clearing his queue of any other objectives he might quailfy for and want to claim; since he can only claim one in the Status phase, he can save this one for then.

Edit: I also disagree that the phrase "entire action phase of this round" implies "up to this point" in any way. The entire action phase is still the entire action phase , the fact that it's not finished yet doesn't change the meaning of the word "entire."

You can not claim this objective since you do not meet prerequisites for it. You still need to meet all the prerequisites to claim objectives with help of Bureaucracy action card.

Thank you for your help. I initially thought (during the rules discussion/argument) that the first option was correct, as Bureaucracy wasn't able to do its job otherwise- but have come to realize the objective is pretty definative and doesn't necessarily imply anything but what it says.

I've taken your advice and sent an "Official Question" off to FFG to satisfy myself and my (quite particular) players, but am not anticipating anything but confirmation that no, you can't fulfill that objective mid-round, Bureaucracy or no.

Thanks again!

(P.S. Anybody looking for a regular game in Central Maryland? I've got a good thing going on Sundays, but we're consistently coming in under 6 people. PM me if you are interested, free from 10-6 on Sundays, and want to know more.)

I'm with Steve-O and Mr. Djingles on this one: Bureaucracy would not allow you to qualify for this objective as you have not held MR the entire Strategy and Action phase.

I guess I'm going to be the opposing voice here; I think you CAN claim the objective. When you claim it, you have controlled Mecatol the entire Strategy phase, and the entire Action phase thus far. Otherwise, this would be the ONLY OBJECTIVE IN THE ENTIRE DECK that would have a special "anti-Bureaucracy" ruling.

To me, it's similar to the "Destroy the last Space Dock" objective. If you destroy another player's last space dock, and they rebuild one, YOU STILL QUALIFY, because at the time you destroyed it, it WAS their last. For me, that's the same here; at the time you claim it, you HAVE controlled Mecatol for the "entire Action Phase" as has been presently constituted. The fact there might be more Action Phase left is irrelevant, because at the time it's claimed, that "more" hasn't occurred yet. At the time of the claiming, you have had it the entire phase.

To be honest, though, this is probably a large part of why the new SE objectives include a Mecatol objective that doesn't have that clause, and why "officially" you aren't supposed to mix the two (though I think almost everyone does).

Of course, FFG can rule on it definitively, and I could be wrong. But I'd be against making this one objective the only one that cannot be claimed by Bureaucracy. Seems like arbitrary rules-lawyering to me.

I'm with sigma on this one. It doesn't make logical sense to me for any Public Objective to be "off limits" due to timing.

sigmazero13 said:

My primary problem with this is that a player could take MR with his final action on one round (particularly easy for someone like Yssaril) and then take Bureaucracy and claim the objective with their first action on the next round, giving other people very little time to actually respond. Potentially no time to respond if they have an AC to let them act first despite SC ordering. The spirit of the objective is that you've held MR for a whole action phase, presumably fending off the attacks of enemy players along the way. The inclusion of the strategy phase in the objective is only there to clarify that you can't take MR on the first action of the phase and then claim it at the end (after all, "holding" MR for the duration of the strategy phase is not terribly difficult.) You need to have claimed it last round. If you allow Bureaucracy to claim this particular objective early, then a canny player can effectively circumvent the only part of the objective that's actually hard to accomplish. Maybe that's fair play in your books, but it smells fishy to me.

That and my prior arguement that "the entire action phase" is the entire action phase. No offense intended, Sigma, but to me it seems like you're the one rule-lawyering by adding the implication that the word "entire" somehow means "...so far." You're adding words that aren't on the card, and perhaps more importantly, words which seem - to me - to cheat the intent of the objective rather than to support it.

You make a valid point about the space docks one. I would agree that a player should be allowed to claim that objective even if the target later rebuilt a new SD. That objective statement was true at some point during the round. I suppose that constitutes a fairly significant change from what I've said above (ie: I previously said an objective should be true when claimed, but in light of this example, I agree it should be that an objective needs to either be true or to have been true at some point during the round in which it is claimed.) In that regard I stand corrected. However, I would still maintain that the MR objective in question is not and was never true, indeed that it cannot be true until after the action phase has ended.

sigmazero13 said:

Now here's a statement I can get behind. The "official" position is that Bureaucracy and this particular objective should never both be available to be combined. Anyone who does mix the objective decks (which we certainly do, and I agree probably most everyone does) is effectively playing with a house rule. The resulting rules questions are also in the house rule domain then, and for each to decide on their own.

That said, I don't think it's an unreasonable question to ask of FFG if the vast majority of players do indeed play this way. I'd be interested to hear their position, too.

Steve-O said:

True, but if the objective was the Shattered Empire "replacement-style" version (not officially a direct replacement, but in terms of intent it seems to be), you could do the same thing, except claim it the SAME turn. IE, Yssaril could outwait everyone, grab Mecatol, and instantly score it. To me, the two situations aren't really that different.

Steve-O said:

Fair enough, but I personally think it's within the intent of the Bureaucracy means. At the time it was claimed, the condition is true - you HAVE controlled the planet for the entire Action Phase. Just because the condition later changes doesn't make it less true at the time But then it's not really that much different than the Space Dock one.

The "so far" bit doesn't really even need to be there, because at that point in time, the point you are claiming the objective, the "entire Action Phase" is everything that has occurred to that point. Anything that happens LATER may change that "entire Strategy Phase", but not until that later happens.

Maybe it is rules-lawyery, but I still think it's pretty... arbitrary (for lack of a better word) that one single Objective would have that distinction of being the only one that cannot be claimed using Bureaucracy's Primary.

Personally, I think the best solution is to simply remove the offending card if using Bureaucracy. For a 1-pointer, it tends to be the more difficult to claim anyway due to the restriction in how long you have to wait. Even with my interpretation of it using Bureaucracy, you have to wait until the next game round to claim.

I'm going to have to disagree. The word "entire" is not synonymous with the phrase "up until this point". The space dock argument doesn't really make any sense either, since it only requires that at some point during the round you did kill your opponent's last space dock. Once that happens, it inherently remains true even if your opponent builds another space dock. It's a statement about a single event in the past. Qualifying for the Mecatol Rex objective in the middle of the round with Bureaucracy is like saying on January 1st that you've spent the entire year doing something.

I agree that you can't achieve the Mecatol Rex objective in the middle of the round. The word "entire" means just that, the entire round. If the rest of the round hasn't happened yet, you can't claim it because it isn't true yet.

The space dock example can become true sometime during the round. Once it becomes true, it stays true no matter what happened afterward. If you invaded a planet with a ground force and that player takes the planet back or takes over another planet, it doesn't make the first invasion not happen.

Well, I guess we're just going to differ on this. I'm not saying "up to this point" is equivalent to "entire phase" - I'm only saying at the exact time you claim the objective, the condition IS true; you have controlled it for the entire Action phase; what comes later is irrelevant as it hasn't happened yet.

But I went ahead and posed the question to Corey, so if/when I get a response, I'll share it here

Hi guys. This is a fun question

Personally, I don't see this being up for much discussion.

Bureaucracy Strategy card clearly states that you MAY complete one objective that you QUALIFY for.

You don't qualify for that object as it has not been the entire Action Phase. Even if this was the last active action in the round, you would still have another opportunity of having another action - even if it's to pass. If Bureaucracy said you may complete one objective regardless of the cards requirements, then I see how it would allow it. But the requirements of the object stay firm as noted by the statement (of may - meaning an option and not a mandate.) The use of the Qualify also reminds us that at the time of playing Bureaucracy, the requirements of the objective card still need to be made.

Part of the reason I love this game so much is how the order system matters so much. This thread discussion is no different

I again disagree. At the time, it HAS been the "entire action phase". IE, there has not been any part of the action phase that you have not had it. If that changes later, that's later.

That's why there's discussion. I may be in the minority on how I view it, but I think it's frankly stupid and arbitrary to say that one single objective is the only one that cannot be claimed with Bureaucracy.

We'll see what Corey says when he responds to my query Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, so be it. Until then, I think my viewpoint is legit. But at this point, I don't think I'm going to convince anyone else, just like nobody thus far has presented anything to convince me. It boils down to what is meant by "entire action phase", and only Corey/FFG can answer what that is intended to be for this case.

en·tire

–adjective
1. having all the parts or elements; whole; complete: He wrote the entire novel in only six weeks.
2. full or thorough: He has been given entire freedom of choice in this matter.
3. not broken, mutilated, or decayed; intact: We were fortunate to find this relic entire.

Not sure where the confusion comes in. The definition of the word entire means the entire thing. You can't qualify for this objective because it hasn't been fulfilled. The objective is meant to be more difficult. If you tried to complete the objective 2/3 the way through the action round then you haven't completed the objective.

There are always going to be more difficult objectives. For instance, the stage I tech objectives are 5 tech total, 3 tech of the same color, 1 of each color, and 2 tech each in 3 colors. This last one is obviously the most difficult as it requires 6 total, while 3 of the same color require only 3 tech total.

Same old argument, same old "non-conclusion". Dictionary definitions are useless in games, where terms may have been intended to mean other things.

You can repeat the same hash until you are blue in the face; until Corey responds one way or the other, neither of us are going to convince the other.