RARodger said:

I've never heard anyone in the two groups I play with complain about that either. We are too busy having fun.

Just sounds like a bunch of internet rage to me, especially for OoW. The changes to Double Strike and such were a much bigger deal than the errors in this one.

RARodger summed up my feelings nicely.

This game brought me back into the RPG fold after a 10 year hiatus, which I think was one of FFG's design concepts - attracting new players to a new type of game. And why did I buy WFRP 3E? Well, as a fan of FFG's boardgames it was the huge pile of gorgeous components of course! But when those components come out of the box flawed, that diminishes my fun. It may not bother you, and that's fine, but it does bother me. And that's fine too.

Here's the deal - I'm not asking you or anyone else to understand why it bothers me, or that you should even care. But I would ask that you respect my decision to A) not purchase expansions that have errors on the physical components, and B) call out FFG for not supporting their WFRP customer base like they do for their boardgames (by giving us corrected components). They've built up a reputation for going above-and-beyond the norm to take care of their customers, and they have done so for me on several occasions when I've received damaged or missing boardgame components. Why not with Warhammer? This is a premium-level RPG sold by a company with a reputation for service, so it's a fair question to ask.

Finally, while I canceled my Omens of War order and have taken a wait-and-see approach to WFRP 3E releases, I'm not running around screaming and crying, or all that bothered really. Yes, I would have liked to purchase these products, but I can wait for a second printing or skip them altogether. You can label me all you want, but I'm not suffering from some kind of "internet/nerd rage" as that's just silly. When I found out there were some misprints and editing errors on the components, I calmly canceled my OoW order and moved on.

There's still a lot to like about this game and so far I'm having a ton of fun playing it. I just wish FFG would slow down and proof their work.

Yipe, I always respect your posts, but I thought of something witty to say (not directed at you, just poking fun

"I think people canceled their order because it isn't error free. If FFG missed a period somewhere, someone here has their period."

jh

p.s. I may wait on my order, not because of errrerz, but because if my brand-new group decides this game isn't for them, I'm not doing another restart (3rd time). There really needs to be a lot more 3e scenario support for me as a GM (I'm hoping they'll grow a head and realize how valuable scenario contests were in the past . I have a life, unfortunately, and that doesn't give me time to scratch-build every 3e game session and do major conversions anymore.

Emirikol said:

Feel free to poke away - and with the red-hot pokers if you must - my next career is going to be a Zealot on the way to Prophet of Doom!

If you are waiting for FFG to produce error free material, it's going to be a looong wait.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Helwig, the crook-turned-Zealot, can endure any purgatory FFG wishes to lay at his feet! Bring on the long, torturous wait!

Just warming up my new character...

And no, I'm not waiting for FFG to produce error-free material. I do own a bunch of their games, after all, so I'm familiar with their MO. However, I am waiting for some sign that they will start to print corrected versions of their cards in future releases (like they did in the Player's Vault) or in subsequent printings. Once they do that, I'm back in business!

Yipe, make sure you use the variants that I wrote in Liber Fanatica #7 and the omens ftha thelm make zealots crazy.

jh

Emirikol said:

I'm re-reading that section now... I'll have to get my GM's approval (dvang on these boards), but your variants look like a lot of fun. I'm especially diggin' the part on Omens and the Optional Skill Set by Cult. I wonder what a Zealot of Ulric would be like?

And to bring this back on topic for Omens of War, does it include a fighting style for the Flail group? If not, I wonder what it should be called? Something like "Thank You Sir, May I Have Another!" or "Whip It, Whip It Good" style?

Yipe said:

Hmmm I don't think there is, but you may be able to convince your GM that Zweihander could apply (it's normally great-weapons, but flails are brutal enough, IMHO).

RARodger said:

This is an entirely reasonable opinion and I don't think anyone is having trouble accepting it. I'm not happy that the cards are wrong. Nobody is happy about that. Nobody is criticizing those people holding this opinion.

People who say FFG doesn't give a rat's ass about their customers are being hyperbolic and have an inflated sense of entitlement. People calling anyone who isn't as bothered as they are about errata fanbois are being obnoxious. Those types of people are being criticized

RARodger said:

Yes those are disappointing and you would think they would be easily caught. It's not a vote of confidence for future products.

RARodger said:

Wizards recently slowed down their release schedule to address quality control issues and I wish more companies would do things like that.

RARodger said:

I'm not familiar with FFG's replacement policies on boardgame components. I did get some replacement dice when I emailed and asked for them, but that's a component that's readily available and wouldn't require a new printing. I have no idea if it's logistically or economically feasible* to print a group of corrected actions, talents, and I guess that one career sheet for replacement and I doubt anyone in this thread does either. I'd be thrilled if they did so, but I'm not getting bent out of shape about it. Some people are apparently upset that others aren't getting bent out of shape about it!

*and I shouldn't have claimed that it wasn't feasilbe in my earlier post

Also,

skolo said:

skolo said:

heh

RARodger said:

+1 it's very creepy when people on the Internet say something on a forum and are literally taking the words right out of my mouth

I also agree with what others have said about slowing down the release rate for quality control, it's an approach I wish FFG would take with their board games as well as WHFRP.

@Yipe and some others:

I must beg your pardon, I didn't want to label anybody anything and my contribution to this discussion was not as wise as it should have been.

I was really just wondering. I completely understood the shockwave of outrage and dissappointment after the release of the guides and vaults. There were such a lot of errors in a product that especially was to clarify things. The creature vault/guide are not half as brilliant as one expected.

But I was quite irritated when there was that amount of anger about OoW, because up till now all the misprints in OoW are about cosmetics and not about whether you can use the cards or not. If there is a false line on one (or was it two?) action card, and all I have to do is to turn it around to find out what it should really read -- then I just can't understand why people claim that you can't have fun with it anymore. The same thing with the Preceptor (or what he's called) Career sheet. It reads "Basic Career: Human", but on the next line there already is the "advanced" trait. So if you stumble across this card in play you will notice the discrepancy immediately without consulting FAQs. You turn the sheet around and read that this career can only be entered via x and y and all is clear within seconds. So far I haven't heard of any misprints in OoW that can actually impair the fun while playing (as was the case with part of the content and components of the guides and vaults). And that's why I don't understand a great part of the fuss that's made about it.

I hope this time I managed to explain a bit better. I don't want to offend anybody. If I do so, I'm very sorry and beg anybody's pardon.

RARodger said:

Amen to that mate - my feelings exactly. I also get that it DOESN'T bother other people. It bothers me though - why can't they empathise?

korknadel said:

I want perfection. It might be unreasonable, but there - I said it

korknadel said:

You're right. Omens isn't a big deal. I still bought it despite the misprints. In fact, none of the mistakes have been a big deal. I'm still in the completionist camp though. I'm there for the same reason that some people buy every comic in a limited edition series, even after the first two issues suck... you want a completed set. That's all I want, a completed set. I'm not an idiot - I can interpret the rules, but the point of the cards is to make things smooth and idiot proof - players and GMs can use the cards as an authority, no rulebook look-ups - mistakes in this are disappointing.

People need to stop talking about it being economically unfeasible... first, it's not like FFG isn't printing stuff every month... if they are worried about a bulk order, just slip the sheets into a printing order for one of the other dozen card games they produce expansions for... have the factory print and cut the cards and then plop them in a box - unsorted and unwrapped... allow an intern to sort the box back in MN and mail out replacements with self-addressed envelopes to people willing to send in for them. Second - this is a loss-leader - a lot of people on other boards be-moan the bits and cards and when they hear about errors they only strengthen their negative assessments... even if it costs them some money, they need to make the offer because it's good business - and I think they know it is, they do it for all their other games!

Second, people need to stop comparing FFG to companies from the 80's and 90's. You're right, we would not ask those companies for errata...that's because that was the 1980's.... the world has changed....when you buy a new TV or Car or MP3 player, and you buy the one with all the features included, and there's a dead pixel or a missing dash bulb or an error playing podcasts, what do you do? Do you simply ignore it? What about when a company posts instructions on the internet on how to fix it yourself with a screwdriver and a mallet? Is it the same? The truth is that you'd take it back and expect a new one. No one is taking their copies of WFRP3 back to the store for a refund, but people are frustrated looking at that one pixel that's blacked out. Some people can ignore it because hey, you've got a million other pixels shining bright on this 72"s of awesome...but for some that 1 pixel glares at them... and as each new expansion comes out, another dead pixel gets added. It seems silly to me that people are so willing to shrug their shoulders at it - but like them I certainly understand that the game isn't broken by it. (I print the PDFs and sleeve them... I did the same thing for Twilight Struggle Errata cards until they offered replacements - which I sent away for and received)

Regardless, this argument is largely academic. I buy all the components of this game, I love this game, I play this game. I am not detracted from doing any of this by errors in the cards. People get up in arms about being called a fanboy for defending FFG - but of course you do. What's in it for you? If FFG produces errata cards, how are you hurt? If they take a hit to make some customers happy, how is that your problem? Printing new errata cards is not going to sink the entire line and prevent new supplements from coming out so unless you're a stock holder, feverant defence of a poor policy is only fanboy-ism, either embrace it or ignore the complaints, they aren't directed at you - we are fans too, we should be united together against D&D or something. Can we all agree that FFG is a way better company than Wizards? Let me put it like this, if the replacements were available would you take a pass? I agree with some people, it sucks when I talk up the game and how great the cards are and then someone posts about the errors and lack of replacements - but isn't this all the more reason to support reprints? $100 or more per box set is already a disincentive (or $60 from bargin Larry on Ebay) - error components only adds to the problem.

PS - I'd also like to make the distinction between Errata and Errors - I see Errata as being something like Double Strike: there are no real problems with the card itself, it's just that in practice, the rules as printed make the card unbalanced. I've got no real issue with that - stuff like this just happens, no fault of the producers. Errors - like blatantly wrong entries or missing text - these things I find disappointing and unnecessary - proofreading only takes time.

I agree with Apocryphal Lore, replacements have been done for previous games. For Descent I know they added new cards in an expansion and that worked really well (for us) as we got the expansion and then we could throw the errata out the window and feel happy that FFG provided us with a nice bunch of new (and correct) cards. We are much more satisfied as customers after getting the replacements.

Same for the faulty dice that were included in the early boxes for WFRP, they added replacements in the box and we were happy to have dice that were up to standards.

So why can't we get a small expansion with cards in a "booster pack", or included in an expansion or just sent to us? To me it seems silly actually, since FFG has proven that they can fix these things in different ways before. The pile of faulty cards are adding up, so now would be the time to replace them in my oppinion.

The errors doesn't stop us from enjoying the game, but we would feel an even higher degree of customer satisfaction if they did give us replacement components as WFRP is a premium and is supposed to be a high quality product, and when you position yourself as a premium then you should act like it, which in my mind would be aiming for maximum consumer satisfaction. And the easiest (and cheapest I imagine) to increase the customer satisfaction at the moment would probably be to replace the components that are misprinted/faulty as this obviously is the main issue people have with the game. I mean, "everybody" loves the system, the artwork and so on but a lot of people are annoyed at the errors, especially on the cards and bits.

Descent and Star Craft the board game as examples are also in the premium segment of board games, and there we have seen replacements etcetera, which shows that it is absolutely possible for FFG to print new cards. Even Mansions of Madness, which is relatively new came with some replacement cards right out of the core box when we bought it a couple of weeks ago. Why is this so hard to do for WFRP? FFG should at least acknowledge the issue, adress it and explain to us fans if they are going to solve it and how.

Alfonzo said:

Well, considering they've announced a Print on Demand capability for their card games (that don't have to match stock quality), and that the action cards don't have to match stock quality (you don't randomize them), I really hope this is something they're looking at doing.

Sausageman said:

I can.-.. it bothers me a lot. Just not enough to stop buying more 3e. That said it won't really get in the way of our gaming. It will annoy me every time I see the error though. So I'm in both camps. I hate the errors, but I'm not going to let it ruing our gaming.

Wow, 5 pages so far and I can only count a handful of 'errors' anyone has pointed out.

Seems there are two things happening in this thread:

1. People bringing to light actual print errors or errata concerning OoW

2. People voicing their opinions about how they feel about these errors, and FFG products in general.

I started playing my first RPG in 1986. (I'll be 38 next month). Through the years I am sure that almost every single book, expansion, CCG and occassionally even dice and miniatures had errors or production issues. If I had 'demanded' that the manufacturers replaced every item with a 100% perfect copy, I would never have had anything to play with! Even today's top notch video games have issues, as do computers, electronics, automobiles, etc. Because you purchased a subscription to your daily newspaper do you demand a reprinted version when they make an error? No, they simply fess up to the error and print a rectraction or the corrected information.

No company that is in business to make a profit can continually be expected to replace all of their products for something like simple printing errors. If there is a print run of 10,000 books, and they have to replace those with FREE copies to everyone who purchased the 1st printing, they'd be out of business overnight.

Since 1st edition D&D I've seen so many errors in RPG's it's almost to be expected. Yes, WFRP is a very high quality product, so much so that I've spent a lot of money getting each release to date. And I'm thankful to see the errata and pdf's available. I never got that from TSR back in the day!

Yes it may be annoying and a bit dissapointing to open your new $50 game supplement and have a couple of misprints. I think what some people are taking for granted is that we live in a world where we have the free time and money to play these wonderful games. The point it to play and have fun! Print out your pdf or new card, scribble your corrections in the book or print it on your snazzy color printer and use a glue stick to paste it place. Now it's fixed!

Besides, anyone who didn't expect some errors in WFRP3e is forgetting the big picture..... CHAOS!!!!!!!! Perhaps a little bit of that ruinous power is slipping into our world and ending up in your hands in the form of the dreaded +6 Type-O of Frustration!

Gallows said:

Amen! It's like the TV example - I hate that one dead pixel on my screen but I'm not going to walk away saying the movie sucked because of that pixel - I just hate that little flaw.

Corrected Below

Apoc said

Sir Jeffrey:

No company that is in business to make a profit can continually be expected to replace all of their products for something like simple printing errors.

This is a bad argument, no one is asking for their whole core set back, just one component, maybe two....we aren't talking about the replacement of a book.

Sir Jeffrey said

I never got that from TSR back in the day!

And TSR went out of business... are we looking at them for a business model?

Sir Jeffrey said

Yes it may be annoying and a bit dissapointing to open your new $50 game supplement and have a couple of misprints. I think what some people are taking for granted is that we live in a world where we have the free time and money to play these wonderful games.

What? So you're equating paying $50 for a supplement and being upset that no one proofed the work on it - with not appreciating the freedom available to modern society members? So if someone makes you a Ham sandwhich and he didn't wash his hands after going to the bathroom and there is a fecal thumb print on the sandwhich... it's a relatively minor flaw to the sandwhich over all - probably less than 1% error - perhaps you should eat it and just be happy you live in a world where you can buy a ham sandwhich?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to take it out on you, but I'm sick of people telling other people what they are allowed to be upset about... and I don't think anyone is demanding FFG do anything - everyone is playing the game and having fun - they are just voicing their disappointment and desires

@ Apoc: Thanks for your point of view.

I'd like to say that I am not here to argue any points or win a thesis writing contest. My post was simply my opinion and I'm glad to join in the chat with my fellow gamers about a topic of interest to us all.

Some people had mentioned print errors in books, others on cards. While it may be simpler to replace the cards it would not be so simple to replace books, even the slim ones that come in the core set or other supplements. That was my point.

I may be mistaken, but I thought TSR was either purchased by or folded into Wizards of the Coast. I have enjoyed the products by both companies over the years, errors and all. Wasn't making an argument about FFG's business model vs. other companies. Just stated that TSR didn't offer pdf's or easy to aquire errata sheets. Once I purchased a D&D (by TSR) book at a Waldenbooks and there was a loose leave errata sheet folded and placed inside. Probably done at the printers as they caught the error before they shipped the books to the distributors. But this was before the internet was a big deal, we're talking 1990.

And regarding the ham sandwich: We're involved in 3 foreign wars, millions of people around the world struggle to have clean drinking water, yada yada... I am pointing out the fact that I'm happy to be in the good old USA and be able to geek out about some silly RPG errors. So my point was people with too much time on their hands can get a little gung ho about trivial things when there are other more serious issues in the world to spend your time on. It's a game, it won't ever be 'perfect'. And anyone who ever goes out to any restaurant or buys food from a source other than that which they have grown or raised and butchered themselves take a reasonable amount of risk that they will get some sort of food poisoning. Thousands of cases each day around the globe. Most go unreported because they are minor and involve a bit of time on your toilet looking at RPG books trying to spot errors I suppose.

This is all tongue in cheek, please don't read into any of this too seriously. We're talking about a game folks.

Can FFG do better? Of course. Do they make a top notch product even with the errors? You bet! I'm sure someone from FFG reads this stuff and takes our comments into consideration.

Apocryphal Lore said:

@ Sir Jeffery: I can dig those points but most people are really just interested in component replacements. I get it, it's just your opinion but it's one that's all too often thrown in people's faces against what I see as a really valid point. I really wasn't targeting you specifically, just the points.

Little heads up though - after you go through a bunch of those united states, you'll start to hit oceans and other countries...and some of us have fairly modern technology like computers that allow us to log into boards like this. I apologize if this is a shocking revelation for you, but not all of us are Americans and not all of us want to be - If you want to make a statement about your government's policy and what not, I think you could probably make a sign or something more effective.

ps- regarding the ham sandwich; I don't know about the restaurants where you're from, but if I see a brown, foul smelling finger print on my sandwich, I tend not to eat it - but to each their own.