Some religious upstart like jesus could have become a Tzeentch Prince, A carefully laid plan that is still unfolding this day. He changed the world with christianity and this religion have in its time claimed a fair share of killed people, for one reason or another.
Who would be elevated to Daemon Prince status?
Lord Ork said:
Gurkhal said:
Q: Except he's not a god of War, he's a god of slaughter and bloodshed. And Sun Tzu doesn't really endorse massacring your enemies in any of his writings.
I disagree. Khorne is very much the god of war. Possibly the god of rage but that's about it. Then again I take a broader view on Chaos so I think I can understand you objections, even if I think that they are wrong.
If you actually read "Art of War", you are told that war is something horrible, that brings a lot of suffering to the people, not only for the killing, but also for the work that is not being done and the rising prices of goods. Sun Tzu argues that a governour must prepare for war, because it is inevitable many times, but must work to avoid war to save his people for suffering. I think the book even has a chapter or two about avoiding war. Also, one of the objectives of a general when it must go to war is to minimize the impact of it, and the suffering of the people.
I have to agree with the B Pact that Sun Tzu rarely qualifies as a Khorne follower. There are other medieval european writers that do appraise the killing, and the pleasure of blood spill, that would make better examples, and that they aren't berzerks.
Bingo. Seriously bingo. Art of War was as much a philosophical exercise as anything else. And the main point of it always was avoid war, and then if it absolutely must happen then only do so if you WILL win, and only choose the battles you would win.
And really, just because someone is good at war doesn't make them automatically Khornate - ALL the Primarchs were good at war, and of the traitors, only one went Khorne - and he arguably wasn't even that good, he was just savage. A far better analog on the unlikely chance Sun Tsu was Daemon Prince material would be either Slaanesh (The ART of War, as it really was treated as an art) or possibly even more likely Tzeentch as lots of what it was based on was trickery and outthinking your opponent. Frankly, I think the average Khornate would dislike the book because of that aspect alone.
"All warfare is based on deception."
I get the impression Khornate followers would not agree with that part - he flat out hates deception. And there's a clear distinction to begin with that Khorne is NOT the god of War, he's the god of Violence and Bloodshed, but also has a sense of honor regarding the weak. More importantly, he'd never agree with pretending to be weak, while that is an integral part of the Art of War.
Ok Sun Tzu may have been a bad example, but to say that he would be a Slaaneshi because he used the word "art" in the title to his books seems like an even weaker argument. I think that it also goes for saying that Khorne hates deception. He hates magic and psyhic powers, but I seriously doubt that the God of War would deny tactics or strategies. Sure, there's a stereotype of Khornate berserkers running knowingly to their deaths as part of their highest wish, but I personally think that the Blood Pact would be more appropriete to represent a Khornate mindset. There are surely Khornates who run knowingly to their deaths but I would think that's more to do with lack of training and tactics rather than any inherit Khornate mindset. I do not doubt that some Khornates would not like the books because it used deception, but I don't doubt that many others would find it very good and use it to good effect for the glory of the Blood God.
To take a real life example: I think that Khorne might really like the Waffen SS, and I do not think that he would get pissed as hell on them for using camoflage uniforms or fire arms instead of close combat weapons. But that's just my view on the glory that is called Khorne. I understand that others differ.
In the fluff Khorne's first and greatest Daemon Prince Doombreed, who is actually even more powerful than some of the daemon primarchs, achieved Apotheosis during the Middle Ages after slaughtering his way through Eurasia. A compelling arguement and some of the fluff suggests that he was actually Genghis Khan. He later fought the Emperor alongside Slanneshi Daemon Prince N'kari on the Vengeful Spirit.
Stalin, killing 24 million people through purges, and another 24 million through the war, he would easily have gained the favor of Khorne for the time.
SomVone said:
Khorne is the God of war.
Berzerk close combat of but one of his facets.
Not quite the full truth. Berkerk gladitorial combat is his most preferred type. But beyond tanks and dreadnoughts, there are zero Khornate havocs to be found.
Many argue that guns is Khorne fair and square, its simply not true.
Khorne Berzerkers cant use Bolters/Meltas/Plasmaguns (ok not even flamers). His most preferred soldiers eschew guns of any type. His primarch was a gladiator, not a great tactical thinker.
Basically Khorne as a general impression, all encompassing (make every evil fit one of the 4 chaos gods) is the god of war.
In the universe of 40k, he is the god of bloodshed and slaughter. Tzeentch is actually better at war than Khorne, simply because an outmaneuvered enemy cant use any weapon at all, denying the khornater zerkers any and all advantages they might have.
Voronesh said:
SomVone said:
Khorne Berzerkers cant use Bolters/Meltas/Plasmaguns (ok not even flamers). His most preferred soldiers eschew guns of any type. His primarch was a gladiator, not a great tactical thinker.
The primarch of who? I don't think a chaos marine legion khorne interpretation should be stated as the only one.
Voronesh said:
Khorne Berzerkers cant use Bolters/Meltas/Plasmaguns (ok not even flamers). His most preferred soldiers eschew guns of any type. His primarch was a gladiator, not a great tactical thinker.
Khorne Berserkers are meant to represent space marines who are not just pledged to Khorne, but who have been lobotomized and psycho-indoctrinated in the vein of the World Eaters. But saying that the World Eaters represent the only style of Khorne followers possible is like saying that Rubrics are the most Tzeentchy of all chaos followers. Chaos Havocs can most certainly take the Mark of Khorne.
I would definitely not consider Sun Tzu Khorney, though.
How about Oppenheimer for building the first nuclear weapon? (Tzench)
Jim Morrison for being Jim Morrison (Slanesh)
Pol Pot (Nurgle) I say Nurgle because of the decay and rot that resulted from systematically destroying the educated and skilled stratas of society in Cambodia
Any reigning UFC champion (Khorne)
Bill Gates (Tzench)
Khorne- Vlad Tepes, Vlad The Impaler, Vlad III, Vlad Draculea....same man, many names, a whole lot of horror and atrocity at his feet, and Attila the Hun
Slaanesh- Elizabeth Bathory and Marquis De Sade
Nurgle- Joseph Mengele is the obvious first choice here, and then Typhoid Mary
Tzeentch- Grigori Rasputin and Adolf Hitler and and from a certain Dark Heresy-esque perspective you could add Albert Einstein as someone who has been manipulated to that end (in 40k Knowledge is dangerous), he who's quest for knowledge brought us the first radioactive weapons. Oppenheimer is a given in this one too.
Chaos Undivided- Genghis Khan
Alexis
*smiles*
Cailieg said:
Slaanesh- Elizabeth Bathory and Marquis De Sade
Tzeentch- Grigori Rasputin and Adolf Hitler and and from a certain Dark Heresy-esque perspective you could add Albert Einstein as someone who has been manipulated to that end (in 40k Knowledge is dangerous), he who's quest for knowledge brought us the first radioactive weapons. Oppenheimer is a given in this one too.
Alexis
*smiles*
Oh I love the Elizabeth Bathory inclusion, and De Sade of course.
On the Tzeench bit though, perhaps Ernest Rutherford for Nukes, he got the ball rolling with atomic theory, there's just not many people who know because he was from little old New Zealand (I've been in his lab, but it probably got trashed in the earthquakes because a lot of those old university buildings came down, my poor home town, had to be an act of chaos).