FATMOUSE said:

you're right. But it is written he gains the character printed str. He cannot have 2 different printed STR at the same time.

Maybe I misunderstood your answer sorry

Kordovan said:

No, you're right. I didn't read him completely. Having "two" printed STR's is odd and I thought it just said STR; nonetheless, he'll still have a printed STR of 2 or less (printed 0), just like he's still an Ally. In short, VB can target him.

ok. This means he is more than fragile and hard to protect. Definitely not an auto-include, even in a shadow deck IMO

thanks Fatmouse

Of course, if they do have the Venomous Blade for him, you also conveniently will have a duplicate to save him....

Kennon said:

Yeah, after which he'll bounce back into Shadows.

FATMOUSE said:

It could easily go both ways - and makes Jaqen much more interesting if he is the only character ever for whom "printed STR" is something other than his ink.

ktom said:

Yeah, it's pretty weird. We are talking about a translation though. it's possible the English version will have minor, yet significant differences in its phrasing. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

I agree with fatmouse. This is a translation from chinese done by a guy so we don't really know the exact wording in english.

I'd say it's like card effects that let you get a character with "printed strength" X or lower from whereever in that the "printed" part does not really need to be there because characters have no other strength than their printed strength while they are not in play. Jaqen having a printed strength that is not printed on the card is paradoxical to me. In my opinion his printed strength has to be the printed strength.

Jaqen not gaining the title really limits his usefulness as many cool character abilities will refer to the character. I really love his nedliness, but his ability will be only situationally useful, I imagine. Cool card, though, in my opinion.

In my opinion designer thinking was that you could use self referencial ability. Let's see final wording and then let's hope in some clarification. Without self referential using this card is quite dead at that cost.

I too hope that self referential abilities will be useable by him:(

It would be very dissappointing to have another Jaquen H'gar who is not competitive... (I count being banned as not being competitive)

FATMOUSE said:

The official english version of the card reads "Jaqen H'ghar gains the printed text, base STR, icons, traits and crests of that card."

Where does this leave us?

Can he be easily killed by flame kissed for example even if he has a dupe with STR of 4?

Does the term "printed" modify only text or every subsection? IE, Jaquen gains (1) the printed text, (2) the base strength, (3) the icons...

Perhaps the term "printed" modifies everything? Jaquen gains the (1) the printed text, (2) the printed base strength, (3) the printed icons...

Also, I have not been playing long enough to know how long it will take to get a faq ruling about whether self referential abilities work? Is it likely, and if so, when? Even if he gains the printed strength and the ability to use self referential abilities, the fact that he costs 4 and that he removes uniques from your opponents dead pile makes him far from unbalanced IMHO...

does hidden chambers reduce the cost for this? and if it doesn't, why doesn't it just say pay two gold to bring him out of shadows?

Robb G said:

But then, even if you did start with his 0, it's not like Flame-Kissed jumps in and kills him before you can apply the base STR of the other card, along with the -2 from Flame-Kissed, as well as any other STR modifier.

The whole fact that Jaqen copies the "base STR" has absolutely no effect on burn or STR manipulation. What it does mean is that Venomous Blade (and other effects looking at printed STR - which is always 0 for him) own him, no matter who he is impersonating.

Robb G said:

Robb G said:

Staton said:

He reads the way he does for consistency with Mandon Moore, I'd assume. And because someone could always create an effect that lowers the cost of triggering character abilities like Jaqen's (and Moore's, for that matter).

If Jaqen really doesn't gain the title of the card that's attached to him, things can get pretty interesting pretty fast.

I may be totally off here, but wouldn't all those self-referential cards be pretty insane? What I mean is this:

FAQ paragraph 3.12 (page 8) connects the effect of self-referential cards to those cards themselves:

When a card refers to its own name (e.g., the
Catelyn Stark (CORE S6) card that reads,
"Response: After Catelyn Stark is declared as
a defender..."), it is referring to itself only. This
response cannot be triggered when an opponent's
Catelyn Stark is declared as a defender.

If Jaqen does indeed gain the text of the card without gaining the title, he breaks this nexus.

Now, sticking with the example from the FAQ, let's say I use Jaqen to get my opponent's Catelyn from their dead pile and attach her to Jaqen. What I get, if the current interpretation is correct, is a character with the Title "Jaqen H'Ghar" and with the text "Response: After Catelyn Stark is declared as a defender, choose a participating character. For the duration of the challenge, that character does not count its STR." As the self-referentiality is gone, I could use this response whenever anybody's Catelyn is declared as a defender, could I not?

Duplicates get kinda screwed up, too. In the example above, I could attach my opponent's Catelyn to my Jaqen, then I could marshal my own KL Catelyn and use CS Catelyn's Response whenever KL Catelyn is declared as a defender?

I feel I must be missing something pretty fundamental here, because the opportunities for seriously insane stuff would be endless. Just imagine a Bara mirror match: I steal CS Robert from my opponent's dead pile. I have now a card with the title Jaqen H'Ghar and the text "When Robert Baratheon claims power for renown, he claims an additional power." But since there's no self-referentiality anymore, the passive effect on my Jaqen applies to any Robert in play, so I marshal my own KotS-Robert (duplicate rules not violated) and have an extra-power-claiming beast that can declare additional POW challenges.

And this is just off the top of my head. I'm sure people could come up with a lot more insane stuff.

So, where did I go wrong here? Ktom, to the rescue!

Ratatoskr said:

It's not nearly as insane as you think it is because it involves a huge variable -- your opponent having just the right card in his/her dead pile. It is almost impossible to plan for or actually make the situation happen.

Ah, I see. You're right, I reckon, and the truly insane stuff might not actually occur that often. Still, I don't like it much. Can't put my finger on the why, though. Just a gut feeling.

To be honest, it doesn't sit well with me. Not because it is broken, but because it is messy, doesn't seem intended, and simply would be much more fun if self referential abilities continued to function.

I suppose it doesn't seem likely that they will FAQ it, but I sure hope they do.

I think they might - its pretty clear that the intent was that he would be able to do whatever he was copying could do - kind of like Doppelganger in Magic. after all - that was what a Faceless Man could pull off in the books - assume another charatcer's identity. At the moment though - the lawyering has held the assassin in the cage on the back of the wagon. Hopefully the FAQ will set him free.