First off I would like to say... the NC wins. Now for my question.

Battlefleet Koronus, page 86 Aside:
"The -40 penalty imposed on Tests to hit Holofield equipped ships also affects the targeting of Nova Cannons, Torpedoes, and Attack Craft. However, the ship does not have any protection against a Nova Cannon exploding within 1 VU of the vessel--a massive plasma explosion does not care if a holofield equipped ship is actually a few hundred kilometres away from where it appears to be."

If that's so, whats stopping the player from attacking the VU next to the eldar ship without incurring the -40 penalty but still getting a full hit on the ship from the nova cannon? The rules state that any craft within 1 VU of where a Nova Cannon shell explodes takes 1d5 damage. I would assume that you can attack a point in space, that you don't have to actually attack the eldar ship (Since you're not just attacking a ship, you're attacking a 30,000 kilometer diameter sphere where the couple kilometer long eldar ship happens to be)

The only thing stopping the tactic described above is the GM. However, if the players have enough ingenuity to figure out that kind of tactic, I say let them use it.

Oh and another question concerning Nova Cannons (And this time Torpedoes as well). The Armoured Prow component says "A ship with this Component may not have Prow macrobatteries or lances." Does this include NCs and Torps?

WhiteLycan said:

Considering that most Imperial Navy cruisers have the armoured prow and torpedoes and those who don't have the armoured prow and a nova cannon, this is a clear "No, it does not."

As for the nova cannon against eldar ships: It's actually quite simple: The holo field keeps an attacker from determining exactly where the equipped ship actually is. So any attempt to target an area of space close to the ship would still have the same problems as targeting the ship itself.

Unfortunately for the Eldar however, the nova cannon doesn't need to hit directly or next to the ship. The general area of space will still be close enough to inflict at least some damage. And that's where the protection the holo field gives stops. It simply can't let the ship appear far enough from its actual position to escape the massive explosion created by a nova cannon shell. The drawback of this tactic of course being that a direct hit (creating two additional hits) is impossible.

It is my understanding that the holo field distorts and blurs the image of the eldar ship. And from the penalties (-40 with lances, -20 with macrobatteries) I get imagine that the holo field only displaces the image of the ship a few kilometers. I can't imagine thinking the eldar ship is 10,000 kilometers away from where it actually is. I know the VU the eldar ship is in. Why would I over/under shoot by 40,000 kilometers (potentially) instead of just attacking the square he's beside. Come to think of it, I think the real Nova Cannon rule concerning Holo Fields should be that there is no -40 penalty. However, a direct hit (as a result of 2 Degrees of Success) is impossible. Just makes more sense to me that way.

Well the first reason why is because it's a ******* bull cheat.

And the rest is like Lynata says. If you can't figure out where the ship is, then you can't figure out which blank area of space is actually next to it.

as long as we are on the topic of the holofield, do eldar ships produce a heat or other form of energy signature that can be targeted. example would be thermal imaging or or UV lighting. as far as i know about the 40k universe most things have a tail pipe or produce some form of unique signature.

Void_onion213 said:

They may well do... but the holofield distorts, displaces and conceals it (if it only provided a visual illusion, it would be completely ineffective as a defence system on a starship).

As far as i can tell the effects are visual, they would still have to either sink the heat and energy into the hull or find a why to vent it. my point is that even though it is a difficult tactic to over come, all defenses have holes. no system is perfect, the stats my suggest that the ships are unbeatable by normal means. but there is always a loop hole to be exploited. exploit that weakness and they are yet another target to hunt at the parties choosing. also it says nothing about hit and run attacks, perhaps a mission to disable or destroy the holo field generator might be an option. even the eldar solar panels would give off some heat, the holo field can't do every thing. and all ships, big or small will have an energy signature.

Except that Eldar craft are state of the art boe signing stuff, worth eons of study and knowledge.

They have ships abel to stand against Necrons technologie wise since they where one of the favored children of the old slaan

i was speaking in more of the game mechanics format. i know that the eldar are old. i'm trying to understand the mechanics of the holo field and any possible loop holes to getting around it so that every fight with the eldar won't turn into a head ache, As far as i can tell with the holo field it only produces visual images and centers around confusing targeting systems. My question is can you nullify the effects by targeting the ship in an alternate manner that does not involve locking on to the ships profile. there should be an energy, radiation , or Psy signature that can be focused on instead of standard targeting.

I know my statements my not be entirely clear, but the fact that all defenses have a weak point or loop hole clause means that this is a way to beat eldar without too much difficulty. even if the rules state that you have a -30 to augers, that only applies to standard functions described in the space combat section of the RT core rule book. As far as i know there is no set rule for using things out side their intended purpose, only GM calls. in question of the nova cannon, since the player is not targeting the ship directly no penalty is applied. which could also imply that the option to blind fire in a particular area might have fewer penalties than trying to lock on to the eldar ship.

hopefully we will get a firm ruling on this, eldar are ment to be a challenge not a death trap.

The problem with assuming that holofields are purely visual is that the primary opticon targeting aboard Imperial warships (and presumably aboard merchantmen as well) is based upon locating the enemy ship's radiant heat emissions as much as (if not more than) the visual spectrum.

Ergo, a holofield must also baffle, mask or generate false thermal images.

Personally, I'm surprised we don't see more SigInt in 40k fluff, with ships being identified by their RF leakage pattern, but it's possible I've been reading too many RCN novels...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

But still completely irrelevant for a Nova cannon. Or maybe not.

Basically an Eldar ship can be a few thousand klicks away from a certain location. Unfortunately you cant guess a range in RT, but people who play Tabletops that make you guess alot (I switched to premeasuring allowed), can achieve said feat with an error margin of one inch at ranges of a metre. Allowing you to snip Eldar ships at comfortable ranges.

40k itself has switched away from guess range weapons to simple scatter die, which means that its a simple die roll if you hit or not. Actually 1 in 3. Holofields do nothing about hit probability though.

So basically do holofields project you far away from a Nova cannon shell explosion. AKA Holofield has a bigger radius than Nova cannon, or not.

1 VU is alot of range, so if a Holfield can shift an Eldar vessel 1.1 VUs away it can work, if it only shifts 0.5 VUs, it doesnt matter chickens***. I know where you are, so firing a Nuke kills the target. Regardless if you miss by 300 metres. Which is simply what Nova cannons are.

Ahh just remembered, the penalty for Nova cannons should be -20, since it is an area effect weapon, which is something that massed Macrobattery fire "kinda" represents, if you miss, its not totally poof damage like a lance. But this is me going from a fluff perspective, and not from a rules perspective. RPGs should be about the fluff, rules are number 1 priority in wargames.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Which is totally and utterly irrelevant if all you need is the general area of space that the ship is in. Which you know, even with an active holofield.

Saying that this is a bull cheat is like saying using your assault gun instead of your laspistol to shoot at a target 300m away is a bull cheat, since you didn't have to walk closer. Or that bringing a man-portable lascannon and meltabombs to a fight against a tank is a bull cheat, since it actually gives you a fighting chance. Having the right equipment for the job at hand is luck or good planing, but certainly not a cheat!

There was this fine quote in one of the Harlock series ones. Unfortunately I can't quote it by the word now, but it about comes down to this:

The ship is about to fire.

"How exact do you want us to aim?"

"Don't sweat it! Our guns obliterate anything in 10'000km of impact anyways!"

Death Star aims.

No seriously it aims.

If you dont believe me.....

Ahhh forget it, youre right.

+120 to BS to hit a planet........

Planet goes poof.

Lukkai made me do it, i swear. Ok maybe not, but his quote had my mind totally going Star Wars.

Glad to be inspiringl.

The other reason it's not a bull cheat is because the Nova Cannon's awesome power is balanced by its requiring special ammunition that must be replenished via Acquisition rolls. "My Rogue Trader is wealthy, so what!" you say. Oh, okay. So you're going to rearm your Nova Cannon while you're light years away from the nearest space station that actually has some shells available? No you're not. Sure, you could just travel back to Footfall or whatever to get more, but that means less time spent exploring the Expanse, and it could even mean another Rogue Trader beats you to a treasure.

Every time the Rogue Trader fires that weapon he must ask himself, "Can I afford to do that right now, or should I save my ammunition for a later encounter?" Yeah, he could use it to pop that annoying Eldar frigate... but he could run into something much worse later on.

I don't care about supply issues, their is never a time to NOT bust a nova-cannon cap in a pointy eared freaks butt...

Someone make me stop having funny thoughts .

Maxim 37: There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "time to reload."

Now back to the Nova Cannon. Oh you already fired.

No seriously rearming can be a PITA, so my guess is, the next warmongering supplement gives us rules for an ammunition storage component. Except we already have such a compinent, maybe giving it a bonus rule of doubling the ammo capacity for such guns? Potentially even going so far as to allow such a thing as doubling landing bay capacity, but you need a week to ready those ammunition stores to break them out of cold storage.

Blood Pact said:

Your argumental eloquence is about as appealing as a dog slowly being ran over by a steam roller. After looking at your post history, I'm seeing a common pattern. You're just a bully, nothing special about you. Go back to 4chan.

Being its from BFG, I'd probably say that for simplicities sake the Nova Cannon hits automatically with its -20 to-hit as per normal in a blast area and does its damage, critical hits. However, it wouldnt be getting any extra, multiple critical hits from bonuses of two or more degrees of success or 10's on the dice.

Might be the easiest way of doing it that I can think of right now.

WhiteLycan said:

Then you'd do well to look at my posting history again, and pay careful attention to who I'm dealing with when I'm at my worst. Because when it comes right down to it I have little tolerance for passive-aggressive behavior, and the tide of munchkinism that seems to be rising on these boards.

Case in point, after the umpeenth time of trying to use calm reason and logic to explain to a poster who shall remain nameless, why an Astartes Bolter might be justifiably more powerful than those wielded by ordinary humans, and having my words be completely and outright ignored by said poster who continues to go on, and on (and on), with the same tired old schtick... well, call me crazy but I tihnk most reasonable people would find their patience wearing thin at that point.

And your own words hardly do you credit here, if we're going to be that petty and pick apart someone else's words, then you can hardly get off for your own above. Since you need only look at my post history and see this nonsense about being from 4chan, or a bully, is patently false. Looks like we should both remember that when you try and tar someone, you get it all over yourself just as much as your target.

My loathing for Nova Cannons vs. Holofields, and aiming for the empty space beside the Eldar ship to avoid the penalty, comes from the simple fact that everyone is so eagre to blatantly and unashamedly exploit what appears to me to be an unintended loophole in the rules. One that seems to add very little to the game, by my appraisal. I applaud cleverness and trying to find new ways to overcome an obstacle, but in this case, where the end result is to negate the effect of the Eldar shields entirely just by aiming a little to the left... well, it's hard to consider that a creative solution to a difficult problem.

I've already watched one game I loved (Exalted) get taken over by a bunch of munchkins and twinks, so I'd rather not see the same happen here.

I should thankyou though, Mr./Ms. Lycan... You did shock enough sense in to me that I realised I needed to reign in my temper.

Void_onion213 said:

They don't have a vapour/energy trail. Their ships quite literally sail on light waves. Wraithbone, being a psychically-attuned-and-grown material in and of itself, could quite well be capable of completely absorbing any other tell-tales they might put out. To put it bluntly, they're space elves. They ain't gotta explain ****. You know how you know an Eldar ship is there? They send your Astropath a message demanding that your dinky little ship leave their area immediately.

Now. The Eldar Hellebore has a Speed of 14 and +42 Maneuverability. It can, at any point in its ludicrously swift journey through the void, interrupt its movement action to riddle your wallowing Cruiser with Lance shots, and then keep moving into your blind spot.

• Cruisers can only turn 45 degrees.
• Nova Cannons have to be mounted in the Prow slot.
• If a Cruiser wants to fire its weapons in the same turn, it may not Come to a New Heading, Adjust Speed & Bearing, or undertake Evasive Maneuvers .

If an Eldar ship can't stay out of the Firing Arc of a vessel that can only turn 45 degrees in a turn to attempt to shoot, they DESERVE to die.

Errant said:

Where does it say cruisers can't fire their weapons when they perform any of those 3 maneuvers? You get a -20 to BS when you perform come to a new heading and -10 with Evasive Maneuvering -10 more per DoS, but that's it. You can still fire. It'd be a stupid rule that said "You moved faster/turned, you can't shoot a gun!!"

Btw another Nova Cannon question just popped into my head. What happens when you use a nova cannon to bombard a planet? =P