Odd question just because I'm not sure and couldn't find an anwser with a general search. I am guessing that in the end since players can use skill abilities during an attack then they can as well use them during an interupt attack. The skills that bother me in this dept are the ones that allow heroes to make an extra attack or multiple and until last game it didn't come up.

Rapid Fire (subterfuge): After making a Ranged attack, you may immediately spend 2 fatigue to make 1 additional attack with the same weapon this turn. You may use this ability multiple times, paying its cost each time.

Quick Casting (magic): After making a Magic attack, you may immediately spend 2 fatigue and exhaust this card to make 1 additional attack with the same weapon this turn.

Both of these decare "this turn" as part of their activations unlike...

Knight (melee): When you declare a Battle action, you may immediately spend 2 fatigue to gain movement points equal to half your speed (round up) and may make 3 attacks instead of 2 this turn.

Cleaving (melee): Each time you kill an enemy with a Melee attack, you may spend 1 fatigue to immediately make one additional attack with the same weapon. You may do this once each time you kill an enemy with a Melee attack.

Both of which are specific, one requiring a Battle action to be declared, the other specifying a Melee attack that kills an enemy (which could happen any time one kills an opponent even on the OL's turn).

My question is, do the first two skills (Rapid Fire and Quick Casting) also apply during the use of a Guard order, or are they restricted to the Heroes turns? I'm suspecting the former even though I know I won't like that answer.

Yes, I believe all these abilities (except Knight, of course) can be used during a guard attack if the conditions are met. Fatigue cannot be spent to gain MPs unless it is the hero's own turn, but as far as I know that restriction does not apply to skills that ask for fatigue to be spent.

Do note the use of the word "immediately" however. Things that happen "immediately" must be done as soon as the required conditions have been met, you cannot move, drink a potion or do anything else in between the initial attack and the follow up (not that anyone other than Tahlia could do such things during the OL's turn anyway.) That's more of a general use footnote rather than something that applies to your specific question.

There may be a FAQ ruling that says otherwise (I'm too lazy to go look) but as far as I know, it's legal to use these after a Guard attack.

Technically, Rapid Fire and Quick Casting say that the fatigue must be spent immediately, but the additional attack happens "this turn". And yes, that potentially gets confusing if used on someone else's turn.

However, based on the Gathered List of Answered Questions , this is an error and the attack is supposed to occur immediately, the same as Cleaving.

That should be plus a soar issue. Apparently hitting enter while in the topic heading bar will automatically post before one is ready.

The issue with soar isn't one I have it's one my other players (the heroes) have. When I told them that a figure with Soar still blocks sight and movement to opponents behind them (after explaining that technically they would be considered four spaces up which gives them their +4 to range requirement), then finding out they couldn't see the monsters behind them my players threw a fit, literally. And rather than have them ruin the rest of the evening with arguing, they decided that while soar should still block movement (although I totally put my foot down on this one) that it shouldn't block line of sight to any figures behind them. So rather than listen when I tried to explain that that's the way the games system mechanics are designed and while house rules do exist to contradict them that I'd rather play the rules as are, I've had to step back long eneogh to ask this question allowing the heroes to play this way during the last game rather than destroy the entire game night with arguing.

When I look at the ability soar, I can see where losing the ability to place one or two creatures to block line of site that are also +4 range to attack before being able to attack monsters behind them would be a very good tactical advantage to the OL. Cutting down on Hero kill speed, costing them time and effort, getting threat tokens, getting in reinforcments. Protecting the Leader Monster or strategic monters or even Lts. My players argued that since I can land them whenever I want I can still use them to block line of sight they'll just be easy to kill and the Melee character won't waste his attack.

I totally understand that there are no real 3D mechanics in Descent. This is obvious in Pits, Fly and Soar in their relation to ground level. Sadly my players just don't seem to get that this is a boardgame and that's how it's played. Should I really put my foot down on this unless my players would rather make the game into Descent the RPG game rather than play the boardgame it was meant to be. I can see why many of you have pointed out that RPG minded gamers that play Descent seem to gain "narrow minded" syndrome focusing on the ideal that the Heroes should always win forgetting it's a 5 player game in which the OL has a chance to win as well. My frustration levels climbed considerably last game with the Heroes though there were other reasons beyond this. I'm finding that this game is enjoyable for the Heroes but anytime the OL seems to enjoy him/herself a little the game is "broken" and needs to be fixed. I've felt walked all over as an OL pretty much since we started playing this game, I enjoy those moments when a play I planned out works rather then gets foiled by dozens of hero options I just didn't take into account. I found a way around taunt, sacrificing some smaller monster to block LoS to him then hitting the other heroes while I can't legally attack him.

I made a choice to not "train" tamalir pretty much handing my heroes the game, as I wanted to run a game thru to the OL Avatar myself to see how things would be rather than just try to end the game as fast as possible since this was our first game of the Advanced Campaign and I was as curious as the Heroes to how it would play out and what each aspect of it was like for both sides up till the final battle. The heroes are aware of this and I doubt they've taken seriously the bonus I've given them by not all out Lt sieging Tamalir (which I could have done a few times by now). As is now I have 2 Lts dead (bad choices on my part and miscalculations in hero abilities, Silhouette used Rapid Fire to wipe out Sir Alric in her Hero turn, just hitting him over and over with full fatigue to spend on what seems like unlimited attacks... regen 5 didn't turn out to be much use once the first Hero reached him... The rest of them just took their ease and waited till she had finished him off from full health with a Guard order. I'm starting to realize I should double my risk estimations when doing anything in this game) and one left on the board, we are now just past halfway to Gold level. I've taken a few good losses and this game looks like it will play out in the heroes favor. Though I'm still gonna kick them where it hurts for as long as it plays out, this OL ain't walking till the heroes have to step over his dead corpse to win the day.

When I look at the ability soar, I can see where losing the ability to place one or two creatures to block line of site that are also +4 range to attack before being able to attack monsters behind them would be a very good tactical advantage to the OL.

should read

When I look at the ability soar, I can see where losing the ability to place one or two creatures to block line of site that are also +4 range to attack before being able to attack monsters behind them would be to cost a very good tactical advantage to the OL.

Sounds like you have a player issue, not a soar issue.

Shatteredragon said:

As Corbon so eloquently said, this is an issue with your players, not with Soar. You seem to have a firm grasp of how the Soar rules work and you seem to have explained them as well as anybody could. Frankly, I'm a little bit surprised your players object to this if they haven't objected to any of the other illogical issues the game presents, even in vanilla. They never asked about jumping over water? They never moaned when you shot at a hero in a pit with a skeleton halfway across the board? Perhaps you just handily avoided letting such situations arise? I was expecting the players at my table to object about Soar, but instead they just shrugged and said "yeah, that's Descent for you."

Bottom line, it sounds like you guys need to sit down and talk about this, preferably NOT while the game is on the table in front of you. Do you want to play the board game as it written, illogical rules and all, or do you want to play an RPG-ified version? You want to make sure everyone (including you) can continue to have fun, since having fun is the whole point, whichever way you decide to go. If you want to play an RPG-style game AND still give the OL a shot at winning once in a while, I would start by adding house rules concerning ressurection of dead heroes. Make them carry the body back to town, have the cost associated with rezzing be dependent on the CT value of the hero (and not cheap.) Money they would otherwise be spending at the market or on training now gets spent keeping the party alive. Use this to counterbalance the variety of house rules that will no doubt benefit the heroes. But also keep in mind that this hit to the heroes exists, and be prepared to make appropriate concessions for it. I'm sure it won't be easy, rewriting all those rules to "make sense" (which is precisely why I've always stuck to RAW as much as possible myself - I'm way too lazy for something like that.)

Another idea, to help your players see things from all sides, would be to rotate OLs. I'm not sure if you've been doing that in vanilla, but if not, now's the time to start. If everyone gets to know the game form both sides, then maybe they won't be so "Hero-centric" about their "balance" complaints. Also, as far as explaining Soar goes, try comparing Descent to a computer RPG, like old school Final Fantasy, instead of D&D. Flying monsters can be seen to be flying, but somehow still manage to occupy the terrain immediately below themselves.