Hallo there!
Just out of curiosity, are there rivalries among the Space Marine chapters?

I don’t mean the usual «We Ultramarines are the best», «No, we Space Wolves are» and such statements but the real feuds, dislikes and (if possible) outright hatreds: the only grudge I can think of is between the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves indeed, just because the latter refused to adopt the Codex Astartes (but I ignore how far it extends as far as relationships between them both are concerned).

Are there any more?

Well, I am far from a Space Marine expert, but as far as I know there is some sort of serious rivalry between Dark Angels and Space Wolves (due to some duel between the two primarchs). There is also some animosity between the Black Templars and the Dark Angels as the latter are most probably responsible for the disappearance of a fleet of the former.

There's tons of them. I highly recommend checking out Imperial Armour 9 & 10: The Badab War for alot of information about them.

For example, The Minotaurs are almost universially hated by hard line Ultramarine successors (groups like the Novamarines and the Genesis chapter).

The Sons of Medusa were almost wiped out due to voicing a difference of opinion with the Iron Hands and their successors.

The Lamenters have a particular bone to pick with the Marines Malevolent for leaving them without aid in the middle of an ork empire.

Perhaps these wouldn't be true rivalries, but it's certainly strong feelings from one chapter against another.

Luthor Harkon said:

Nnnooo...

There's never been an explicit statement as to whether the Templars suspect that the Dark Angels were responsible for the disappearance of one of their ships, and about 90 battle brothers. It's a reasonable idea, but it doesn't actually say the Templars are holding a grudge (it doesn't confirm whether the Dark Angels were the reason the ship went missing).

Every one who is not an Ultramarine or one of their sucessors hates the Ultramarines, anything published in recent rule books covering codex marines suggesting otherwise is just Smurfmarine fanboy propaganda.

The Salamanders dont like the Marines Malevolent since the 3rd war of Armageddon.

The Smurfs and their sucessors dont like the Minotaurs

Interesting: it looks like there are less or smaller rivalries thank I thought there are.
Thank you for your replies!

Berengario said:

Considering the rather small number of chapters that are really fleshed out in canon, I'd say not that few. And the (although depending on the source) Dark Angels vs Space Wolves feud is usually said to have been as bad as units of them actually attacking each other when meeting unless there was a threat for the Imperium present. And only with time changing to a duel ritual fought between two chosen champions.

Also small quarrels may arise at any point, simply through different philosophies. The Wolves for example usually being quite friendly and protective to normal human troops, the Iron Hands simply seeing them as weak flesh-bags that are to be ignored or, should they not meet a certain standard (that standard being the one they expect from a Space Marine), cleansed from the world.

I think the important thing to remember about the Astartes is this quote by Captain Navarre of the Black Templars:

"Your honour is your life. Let none dispute it."

A Space Marine does not simply carry his own personal honour, but he is the product of an unbroken gene-line from the Primarchs (and by extension the Emperor) all the way through him. The warriors who bore the progenoids used to create his organs still live on in every action and every deed. If he disgraces himself, he disgraces his entire Chapter, and all the glorious warriors who died wearing the same heraldry. If you impugn their honour, he is fighting to defend not only himself, but every warrior of the Chapter.

GW has done a fair amount to create animosity and tension between canon Chapters without making it too ridiculous. After all, tension and strife are key elements of the 40k universe, and there is historical precedent (for example, the Knights Templar and the Knights Hospitaller were rivals at times.)

This is obviously easier if you're using DIY Chapters, but it is possible to stir rivalries between the various members of the Astartes, certainly.

Forgot one more important one.

Blood Ravens

Stealing every relic from every chapter they lay eyes upon. And everyone knows it.

Things are sometimes a little tense between the Crimson fists, Red Hunters, and Executioners and many other space marine chapters bacause they work with the Inquisition more then others, and frequently participate in Astartes Purges. (Not that those happen often)

Some of the more notable SM rivalries and grudges that I can think of off the top of my head:

Dark Angels vs. Space Wolves. Leman Russ demanded that Lion El'Johnson delay combat operations so that he could personally fight a foe that had insulted Russ. The Lion refused to call back his troops that were already fighting and an enraged Russ demanded a duel. The Lion punches Russ and knocks him unconscious. Russ declares himself "wronged by a cheap shot" and fights begin breaking out between Wolves and Angels. This is later downgraded to ritualized honour duels fought between chapter champions whenever Space Wolves and Dark Angels are in the same warzone.

Dark Angels vs. Inquisition. Some Inquisitors are suspicious of the secretive and sometimes odd behaviour of the Dark Angels and their successor chapters, although they have a frustrating lack of proof that anything is amiss. Likewise, the Dark Angels are commonly considered some of the most fanatically loyal Space Marines to the Imperial cause, so their detractors often have political problems within the Imperial system at large.

Space Wolves vs. Inquisition (Ordo Malleus). After participating in a major campaign alongside Imperial Guard and Grey Knights fighting a daemonic infestation the Wolves refuse to go along with Inquisitorial mandates and battlefield protocols that are standard procedure for actions taken beside Grey Knights: Mindcleansing for Astartes and termination for Guard. The Space Wolf refusal was not only on behalf of their own Marines, but also on behalf of the surviving Imperial Guard troops, going so far as to threaten violent actions. This blatant denial of Inquisitorial authority adds on to the issue of the "13th Great Company" and genetic-deviancy in general to make the Space Wolves very much on the Inquisition's "**** list"

Black Templars vs. almost everyone. The Black Templars REALLY hate wytches! They refuse to make use of Librarians and detest and mistrust anyone who would make use of wytchcraft in any form. This includes almost every other Astartes chapter as well as the Scholastica Psycanna. The Templars grudgingly tolerate the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the Navis Nobilitae out of necessity, but make a point of participating in highly ritualized scourging and purification rituals after even incidental contact with members of either organization.

Ultramarines & most successor chapters vs. Minotaurs, Space Wolves, Black Templars etc. The Ultramarines' Primarch personally wrote the Codex Astartes that reorganized the Space Marine Legions into the current Chapter system after the Horus heresy, laying down battle formations, wargear allocations, squad and company formations and designations, insignia, tactics and so on. Chapters that openly and obviously reject the Codex template for chapter organization are considered to be morally suspect in the eyes of the strictly orthodox Ultramarines and take the open rejection of Guilliman's Codex to be a deep insult to the Primarch and his Chapter.

Inquisition vs. Relictors. The Relictors Chapter takes a deeply radical approach of "using the tools of the enemy to fight the enemy". For obvious reasons, the Inquisition takes a dim view of an Astartes Chapter embracing the use of sorcery, daemonhosts, forbidden weapons and other ill-advised methodologies and has declared the entire chapter to be Heretics.

Space Wolves vs. Thousand Sons (Chaos). Leman Russ and Magnus the Red always hated each-other, and when Magnus and his Legion refused to give up the use of sorcery Russ and the Space Wolves were sent to "deal with the problem" by order of Warmaster Horus. Due to the well-known discord between the two Primarchs it was not expected that Magnus would ever make the trip to Terra for trial, at least while still alive! Both Legions tore into each-other with such ferocity that there is a special level of hatred still simmering 10,000 years later.

Death Guard (Chaos) vs. Emperor's Children (Chaos). A rivalry dating back to when both were loyal Legions, the severly plain and austere Death Guard and the lavishly decorated and "artistic" Emperor's Children have always clashed over just about anything. Decorations, ornamentation, insignia, battle tactics, demeanor... All are cause for discord. Since the Horus Heresy the discord has only grown since the Death Guard serve only Nurgle and the Emperor's Children embrace only Slaneesh.

Iron Hands vs. Emperor's Children (Chaos). Once their Primarchs were the closest of friends, but in the early days of the Horus Heresy the Emperor's Children betrayed the Iron Hands while participating in combined combat operations, destroying a large percentage of the Iron Hands fleet and leaving them stranded. Later on Istvaan V the Iron Hands were almost completely destroyed. The flesh may be weak, but hatred is eternal!

Blood Angels vs. Black Legion (Chaos). Warmaster Horus betrayed and ultimately murdered his former friend Sanguinius, the Primarch of the Blood Angels. No elaboration needed.

Imperial Fists vs. Iron Warriors (Chaos). The loyalist and traitorous masters of fortification and siege warfare were rivals during the Great Crusade and the rivalry has grown into a soul-deep hatred after 10,000 years of heresy and betrayal.

Howling Griffons, Crimson Fists and all Imperial forces vs. Soul Drinkers (Renegades/Chaos). The Soul Drinkers attacked the Adeptus Mechanicus over a matter of pride and then turned away from the Imperium. They are declared Excummunicatus Traitorus by the Inquisition. Due to painful encounters in battle with the Soul Drinkers, the Howling Griffons and Crimson Fists Chapters are especially hateful of the renegades.

Blood Angels vs. Adeptus Mechanicus. Not so much battlefield rivals so much as a case of broken trust. The Blood Angels recovered a variant STC template for the Predator tank (dubbed the "Baal Predator" after the Blood Angel's homeworld) but refused to share the template with the Adeptus Mechanicus, opting to keep the design for themselves exclusively. Extreme pressure on behalf of the Mechanicus by the Adeptus Terra has been pointedly and stubbornly ignored by the Blood Angels for a few thousand years now. A guarded "cold war" status has existed between the Blood Angels and the machine cult ever since, although fleet maintenance and training of Techmarines continues.

All loyalist Chapters vs. Alpha Legion (Chaos). Alpha Legion makes prolific and deliberate use of Imperial battle cries to goad and mock their opponents. Cries of "FOR THE EMPEROR!" from such obviously twisted and debased traitors causes even the most placid of the Emperor's servants to fits of bottomless rage!

Ultramarines vs. Mortificators. The orthodox poster-boys of the Ultramarines are shocked and disgusted by the practices of the Mortificators (an Ultramarines successor chapter). The Mortificators make extensive use of the skulls of the fallen to decorate their ships and fortresses, participate in blood drinking rituals as well as many other dark and grisly Chapter Rites. That sons of Guilliman could descend to such barbarity is horrifying and repugnant to the Ultramarines, and relations are strained and tense at best. Only ancient oath-bonds keep the lid on this simmering issue... barely!

Blood Angels vs. Space Wolves. The Blood Angels generally maintain that the Space Wolves are a feral pack of mongrel berserker rabble, barely even human. The Space Wolves in turn maintain that the Blood Angels are a bunch of effite pretty-boys who are more concerned with looking good than fighting. (I am struggling to not make a Twilight joke here...)

Lots, lots more where this came from in this big, bad galaxy of ours.

short A: yes

long one : ofcourse? you try having a 1000 X a 1000 men fighting for honor, glory and the empire.

with wildly difrant ideas on what that means and how too do it, ofcourse there is going too be some rivaly?

damm every other group has rivals IG regiments rival too be the best, most loyal and any number of others things

the navy captains pit there schips agains the enimy not only for there duty but also who can kill or capture the most (all in the emperors name ofcourse)

so yes there is plenty of rivaly too go around. but that said. most will still join forces if the treat if large enuf (but maybe not work well togeter)

redhead222 said:

Thank you, but what I meant wasn't to know if there are rivalries among the space marines chapters (I could guess there are) but what are the known rivalries.

Actually, it's almost harder to find examples of GOOD relationships between chapters! The Ultramarines are revered by many of their successors, and enjoy friendly, paternalistic relationships with them, there's a (relatively) friendly 5 chapter Olympicsalike competition that I recall reading about in the last Space Marines Codex, and individual chapters can get on fairly well during broader conflicts, (the Raptors and Red Scorpions got on well during the Badab War, for example). The Unforgiven have an unusually close relationship, too.

However, one imagines that the default position among most Chapters is one of polite mutual suspicion. After all, the Chapter system was set up so that Marines couldn't threaten the Imperium as a whole again. All Chapter Masters would be aware that part of their role is to avoid getting too cosy with other chapters. When strong bonds of friendship/mutual alliance/treaties exist between chapters, it can lead to another Badab War. A Chapter Master who's doing his job well would probably want to avoid relationships with other chapters becoming too close, just in case he ever has to declare war on them!

(Sorry, I know, that's a bit off topic and not what you were looking for Berengario! )

Luthor Harkon said:

Except it's not the hateful rivalry that many seem to think it was. The combat between Primarchs did not cause any long-standing grudge between them, as I recall. I wouldn't perhaps go quite as far as describing the rivalry as a 'friendly' one, but it's really not the anger-fuelled schism that some seem to think.

ZillaPrime said:

I don't think that they always hated each other, but they certainly weren't fans of each other due to clashing personalities, and that came simmering to the surface after a joint operation, during which the Wolves came to see the 1KS as sorcerers, and the 1KS saw the Wolves as library-burning savages.

The Space Wolves were ordered by the Emperor, rather than Horus to deal bring Magnus to justice. And it wasn't because of earlier friction that the Wolves were sent to purify a Chapter, but because of their loyalty... after all they already had a track record of butchering other Legions when ordered to do so.

If you want to murder a Chapter, send in the Wolves.

Given the Wolves rather rabid loyalty, it's ironic that they're so distrusted.

Siranui said:

True. I always got the impression that it was quite a complicated relationship.

Johnson was incredibly talented, but very quiet, serious and perhaps a little bit of a ****. Russ was loud, proud and boorish. They came to blows over an incident where Russ promised to kill a particular rebel, but Johnson swept in and did it before Russ could. Russ called him out on it, they fought for hours, and finally Russ, seeing the funny side, just burst out laughing and was knocked out by Johnson.

Of course that's ONE interpretation...I seem to recall that the white dwarf which introduced Russ (WD118?) describes him taking a blade through the (a?) heart during that confrontation, so perhaps it was a little more...aggressive than just a fist fight. Perhaps getting a blade through the heart counts as being decked for a Primarch.

I suspect there was a great deal of anger and hatred between the two of them initially, but that it seemed to cool over time into perhaps grudging mutual respect.

The rivalry between the Space Wolves and Dark Angels that flows from their Primarch's relationship could perhaps be said to be an almost symbolic one, rooted in a desire for continuity rather than outright hatred. Although not all members of each chapter may be so well up on the history of the relationship to embody it without some degree of malice.

Banjulhu said:

Err.... no. The Crimson Fists were based on those Imperial Fists which readily adapted the Codex Astartes. You better not think they dislike the Ultras. The Blood Angels helped the Ultras clean up Ultramar after the smashing of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Have another look at the Favoured Son Solo Mode ability if you don't believe.

It's 40K heads which don't like the Ultras but the Ultras are generally held in highest esteem among most Astartes, including non-successor chapters. They are the ones who have been holding the Imperium together, they have continued to excel, Calgar might be the greatest Astartes of his time (discounting Dante and the Grey Knights) and in fact the greatest for millenia. He's been personally arranging for peace between the Crimson Fists and Mortifactors in 819.M41 (very relevant for Deathwatch).

What you said could not be further from the truth. In the game world the Ultras are almost universally held in high esteem.

Alex

Exactly. What the fans think of the Ultramarines [ranging from viewing them a mindlessly dull generic-marines 15 years ago, to them now being so dripping with canon-based uberness that liking them is akin to cheering for Schumacher in 2004] has no bearing to their relationships with other Chapters within the game universe.

So do Black Templar hate psykers enough that unexpected contact with imperial psykers could result in violence? Such as there being some large scale war, and the BTs burst through a wall to see an imperial psyker incinerating some orks... would they be likely to attack, or just to sneer? Have there been any documented incidents of BTs attacking loyal psykers, or what they would do when encountering a librarian suddenly?

Deinos said:

The Black Templars do hate wytches to a degree that would be hysterically comical if it was not so deadly serious. That said, they are still fanatically loyal IMPERIAL warriors. A chance encounter would not likely result in the Templars murdering the Imperial psyker and especially not a Librarian, but the Templars would be at best standoffish and disdainful. Under NO circumstances would they cooperate or work with the psyker, instead moving on to continue their mission away from the "filthy wytch". Of course if the psyker is stupid enough to insult or otherwise provoke the Templars then there is likely to be blood, again the notable exception being an Astartes Librarian or an Inquisition psyker due to the political ramifications of such a killing.

It is important to note that the Black Templars have been on Crusade for 10,000 years and counting now to prove beyond a doubt that they are loyal to the Imperium, so to initiate a deed that would call this long history into doubt or question is to destroy everything that the chapter has fought and died for. To put it simply, only their strong sense of honour can reliably keep their ire in check.

I'd also say it depended on their level of Primarch's curse, too.

Aha, thanks. Things like "Abhor the Witch" and "Hatred (Psykers)" left me wondering how hateful that they should be.

Black Templars aren't mindless berserkers but are naturally inclined towards despising the witch. They barely tolerate astropaths and navigators, the bare minimum psyker resources that Imperial forces use to move and communicate throughout the galaxy. If they knew about Void Abacuses (RT: Into The Storm), some of the more hardcore BTs might be tempted to use them to reduce the number of witches on board (so long as they don't smash the devices as witchcraft in the first place).

Ultramarines do indeed have a great reputation in universe. Even their successors get some credit just by being successors and sticking to the Codex Astartes. The UMs are good at what they do, even if a lot of 40k heads find them dull or have too many fanboys behind them.