I have not clear how duplicates work. Here are some questions:

1. Can I play a duplicate in a phase other than marshalling?
2. If I play "Ambush from the plains", can I duplicate a unique character?
3. In the previous situation, what happens at the end of the phase? Can I save with the duplicate the returning to hand effect?
4. If I put into play Khal Drogo after winning a challenge and then duplicate with Ambush from the plains, what happens at the end of phase? Can I save the returning to hand?
5. If I play a Viserion with ambush keyword, can I duplicate the one in play?

Thanks in advance

zarius said:

1. No. The rules p.19 specify you can play duplicates only in Marshalling

2. So you cannot do this because "Ambush from the plains" can be played only during Challenge phase

3. It won't happen as explained in #2. However the effect would not resolve successfully because it applies to a character and the duplicate is not a character. So you would keep the duplicate.

4. You cannot trigger Responses at the end of the phase, as described in the FAQ game timing. So the Khal return to hand cannot be saved this way.

5. You can do this, but only during the Marshalling phase.

Bolzano said:

It is true that the rules say you can only "play" duplicates during the Marshalling phase. But recall that when you"play" a card, you pay its cost and put it into play by a game mechanic (usually in the Marshaling phase, but in the case of events, during any phase). Ambush from the Plains and the Ambush keyword are not "play" effects. They are "put into play" effects, and therefore bypass some aspect or restriction on the "play" mechanic - in this case, timing.

If you use a "put into play" effect on a unique card that you already own and control in play, the copy you "put into play" will become a duplicate on the copy already in play. This is a very, very long-standing interpretation of the rules for duplicates and "put into play" effects. So the answer to questions #2 & 5 are "yes."

As for the "return that character to your hand" stipulation on Ambush from the Plains, recall that the duplicate is not considered a character. It is a titleless, textless, traitless card. As such, it doesn't meet the criteria for "return that character to your hand."

Ok! Thank you for the quick response!

That's odd though - is not that exact character still in play, since you duped it? Given that, I would expect that character to still have to return to your hand, which you could discard a dupe to save. I'm probably flummoxed here though.

WolfgangSenff said:

"A character" will always refer to a single, particular character card. Think of Summoning Season. You are not pulling all copies of a card with a particular title from your deck, only one particular character card. Same with any "choose a character" effect. You are always picking one particular character card, not all copies of that card in play.

For Ambush from the Plains, once the character card turns into a dupe, it becomes invisible to the event's effect.

At least this is my understanding of the issue.

Saturnine said:

Let's look at two other examples that might help clarify the mechanics here. Let's say I have a copy of a non-unique card like Street Waif in play. I use AftP to put a second copy of Street Waif into play. I kill the AftP copy for claim. Does the event effect return the other copy to my hand at the end of the phase? Or let's say that I don't kill the AftP copy for claim. Does the event effect return both copies of Street Waif to my hand at the end of the phase? In this example, it is easy to see that the "return to hand" effect of AftP only applies to the exact card that was put into play, not every card with the same name. It is pretty much the same reasoning as the "self-referential" rule, where the effect applies only to the specific card indicated, not to all cards with the same name.

Now let's say that I have Drogon in play and I use AftP to drop a Black Hatchling with the text "if you control Drogon, attach Black Hatchling to it as a dupe." When I use AftP to drop that Hacthling in, it is immediately moved to Drogon as a dupe, right? So at the end of the phase, does the "return to hand" effect hit the dupe? No, because it is no longer the "Black Hatchling" character - it is a titlessless duplicate card. But is Drogon returned to my hand since the card subject to the "return to hand" effect more-or-less became Drogon when it became a dupe? Again, no because this is not the card that was put into play by AftP. That card effectively left play (at least as the "Black Hatchling" character), so all effects tied to the "Black Hatchling" character card have nothing to apply to.

Take the reasoning in those two examples together and you get that even if the AftP card that becomes a dupe has the same name as the card it duped, the individual character card with the "return to hand" effect is no longer around to be returned to hand, and the effect ended - rather than being "transferred" to another individual card.

That makes sense, but I object to your use of the word "titlessess".

WolfgangSenff said:

That is at the end of phase, you don't have any chance to "Save Response". See FAQ......

Another question,

Name:Black Hatchling
Type:Character
Expansion set: Queen of the Dragons
Affiliations(s): Targaryen
Trait(s): Creature, Dragon
Text:
Creature, Dragon HT only. No attachments. Deadly. If you control Drogon, attach Black Hatchling and all of its duplicates to Drogon as duplicate.

If you have Drogon in play, can you attach Black Hatchling to Drogon from your hand when marshalling?

I am thinking of this because without specific statement, Cards ability is only valid when they are in play. Right?

Uncle Joker said:

The new hatchlings are shadows cards. So if the Black hatchling is in the shadows and you have drogon on the table, are you precluded from bringing the Black Hatchling from the shadows or once you do, it becomes a dupe?

goshdarnstud said:

I think you could bring it out of shadows to attach as a dupe, just like other unique shadows characters

Mathias Fricot said:

Yes, but if you have a Black hatchling in your dead pile, you could not bring another Black Hatchling out of Shadow to attach to your Drogon.

goshdarnstud said:

To be perfectly clear here, the unique card "Black Hatchling" is not the same as the unique card "Drogon." So having one in play has absolutely no bearing on whether you can play/put into play the other - as a regular character or a dupe.

Until they are in play at the same time, they act the same as any other two unique cards with different titles. Having "Robb Stark" in play has absolutely no bearing on whether or how you can play "Jon Snow." You could substitute the names of any two unique cards with different titles - including Drogon and Black Hatchling - and the truth of that statement will not change.

Now, if Drogon and Black Hatchling ever are legally in play at the same time, the passive effect on "Black Hatchling" will kick in (assuming it hasn't been blanked). But it is the Black Hatchling's ability that creates the dupe effect when the two cards are in play together, not any sort of game mechanic or rule related to unique cards or duplicates.

You cannot, and should not, assume that the rules for unique cards or duplicates work differently for "Black Hatchling" and "Drogon" because of a passive character effect that only works when the 2 cards are in play at the same time.

So I know I'm resurrecting an old thread, but my question involves Black Dragon hatchling specificly. Say I have a BDH (shadow version) in play along with a duplicate attached to him. When I get Drogon into play, I understand the character BDH is attached to Drogon as a dupe. What happens to the dupe that was attached to the BDH? Does it become a dupe of Drogon as well? What happens to a dupe when the unique character it is attached to suddenly is no longer a unique character?

The Black Hatchling specifically says to attach it and all of its duplicates to Drogon as duplicates (as do the other two for their respective counterparts).

haha, awesome. i really should re-read the cards I guess. ty.

ha, no problem, we all read cards selectively at some time or another

what would happem if I have a character duplicated and it gets attachment that would kill it, so I discard the duplicate to save it. Does it that attachment stay there to kill it again or the card can no longer be affected by it?

futabaaoi said:

If saving the character wouldn't remove it from the effect that is killing it, you cannot even attempt the save.

If the attachment kills passively or as a response to some non-terminal effect (read burn), such as Condemned passively killing when its controller wins dominance or Demon's Dance's response killing after the season changes, you can save the character from this effect via duplicate or any other means available. The attachment will stay on, however, and the character will still be vulnerable to dying the next time the attachment's kill conditions are met. Not sure exactly what prompted the question, but hopefully that's helpful, a little more detail would aid us in giving you a more thorough answer

Sorry for being vague just wondered what happened with something like that. Cause I was not sure on how attachments worked in situations like that. There are usually no situations like that were the attachements would go away when a character is saved then?

Only if the save effect itself includes making the character leave play (Viserys Targaryen Core, Ser Davos Seaworth Core, Unburnt, The Citadel of Oldtown). But in that case, it's the character leaving play that causes the attachments to go away, not the save itself.