When playing a stratergy card (eg "No fuel" Fatigue one enemy vehicle that is not in opportunity fire mode) Can this be used on an AT gun? I am a little confused as the image in the top left corner on the ref sheet is the vehicle image but under the title of the gun it says equipment. I would think that it couldnt be used because to start with it dosnt make sense. But the ref sheets has the AT guns as being vehicles and equipment.

This came up in a scenario i played the other night too, Hellfire pass from DotF the germans used the dust cloud card on both AT guns (again dosnt make sense as this is ment to replicate the tracks kicking up dust)

This is a typical question for FaQ.

Technically i would say yes an AT gun can be affected of 'no fuel' cuz it is a vehicle, but obviusly, it shouldn't.

I've got two other question for the FAQ:

1) subversion: When? when can it be done? And in which order? When you draw cards?

2) Sabotage: some cards specifies which nation it affects, while others dont. But what if it is layed on a combined deck and you pick a card from the deck yourself... What happens then?

The AT gun is equipment. This is one graphic element in TOI which is rather weak, as a symbol printed on the reference sheets. They should have a more distinct symbol, like a solid color silouette. There should have been a new AT silouette used for the equipment trait when they printed the DOTF sheets.

The AT gun is peculiar in many respects, because it does have a shield and thus some minimal armor protection for the crew, and can become almost a vehicle like the latter 4 wheeled version of the towed 88 AT gun was. But most , AT guns, were small targets, and there should be something added in the rules to reflect the advantage of the AT guns survivability, vs a tank. I have seen lots of WW2 footage where an AT or Artillery field gun gets pounded by barrage, killing all the crew, yet the gun itself is not destroyed. This could be simulated in the game by the AT gun and the squad manning it , becoming an AT gun "unit". To destroy the AT gun itself, would require that first results of any attack against the unit be applied to the squad, and then a second single die roll to see if the AT gun itself, actually got hit. Something like 1-3 for a large gun like an 88 flak, and 1-2 for the smaller AT guns. If hit, the gun takes one damage.

Additionally, a squad which moves into a hex with an enemy AT gun which is unmanned, (no other enemy squad in hex) instead of capturing it, may elect to destroy it by declaring so, and the AT gun is removed.(having been destroyed with demo charges)

As an example: An American 57mm AT gun and attached squad of 3 regular infantry and 1 elite infantry located in woods hex are attacked with normal attack by a Pz-IV in an adjacent hex. The AT gun has an armor value of 2, the woods hex is+3, for a total of 5 def dice. The Pz-IV attack strength = 6 and being adjacent, is close range , so 4,5,or 6 are hits, The Pz -IV rolls 1,2,4,4,5,6 for a total of 4 . The AT gun "unit" rolls 1,1,3,5,6, for a total of 2. The result is two hits, and 2 figures are removed from the AT guns attached squad. Now a single die is rolled to determine if the AT gun actually got hit. The 57 AT gun is in the "small" category, thus requiring a 1-2 be rolled to hit. The attacking player rolls a 2, and one damage marker is placed by the AT gun.

In the next action, the German player decides to attack the AT gun unit again with another PZ-IV from 4 hexes away. The armor value of the AT "unit" is reduced by 1 because it is already damaged. The PZ-IV makes a normal attack, at normal range, so only 5 or 6 is a hit. The total attack dice = 6, and the total defenders dice = 4. The PZ-IV rolls 2,2,4,3,5,6 for a total of 2 . The AT gun unit rolls 1,3,,2,4 for a total of 0. Result is 2 casualties to squad, which eliminates the squad, The attacker may now roll the single die to determine if AT gun itself got hit. He rolls a 4, and the AT gun survives.

On a third action, the German player moves a squad (without MG, or mortar) into the same hex as the 57 AT gun and instead of capturing it, decides to declare that it is destroyed, The AT gun is then removed from the board. (note: this could be ammended to requiring some kind of demo rule to actually destroy the gun)

There could be some tweaking of this proposed rule for different types of units firing on the AT gun unit, so that infantry units not adjacent would have to roll a 1 for the subsequent roll to determine if AT gun itself were hit. This simulates the much lesser probability that small arms fire would actually destroy the barrel or the carriage of the gun itself, but some ammo nearby might get hit, so there is still a chance the gun could get damaged from exploding ammo.

Grand Stone said:

AT-Guns: I agree, probably FAQ material. If they are "imune" to strategy cards, they also can't be effected by those that can repair a vehicle. So they have to take the "good and the bad" or it has to be FAQ'ed for every individual card.

1) According to the rules: during the Status Phase, no other restrictions.

2) According to the rules you can indeed trigger a sabotage card yourself by placing it on the combined deck and resolving the effect on your opponent (depending on the card ... and some of those are very very interesting!).

8)

Aussie_Digger said:

Good question. On investigation it would appear that AT guns are Equipment as listed and would not qualify as Vehicles for strategy card purposes.

I do see the confusion of the vehicle image on the aid sheets but will note that those also appear on the infantry sections as well, a misleading design element.

Interestingly enough, when the 88 fired, it would create a dust cloud from the blast out of the barrel, something German gunners weren't happy about! (made for easy locating).

It's also interesting to note that in the official rules, equipment is attacked using armour values (like a vehicle). AT guns were more often neutralized by artillery HE than tank AT (especially in the desert). The British tanks often lacked HE capability to deal with the 88 effectively, until the appearance of the Grant and later the Sherman. If you want to play DotF hardcore, ignore the British tank anti-personnel capabilities!

This is what i was thinking (that equipment are differnt to vehicles) but the other thing that i found interesting is there are strategy cards that relate to just squads and ones relating to vehicles but no cards relating to equipment units. If there were cards that did just relate to equipment then that would have cleared up some confussion.

Aussie_Digger said:

I've been stung a couple of times in paying for a card that is 'squad' only thinking I could use it on a vehicle!

Aussie_Digger said:

AT GUNS (up till now), have the trait/descriptor of EQUIPMENT. Anything that affects EQUIPMENT affects them, period. Anything else, doesn't. & vice versa.

Don't go by illustrations/graphics. Go by the text & you'll be playing what the designer's thought would work.

L

LETE said:

Yeah ... but ToI kinda created this problem with their own FAQ:

Q: Can anti-tank guns set up or move into entrenchments and/
or pillboxes?
A: Anti-tank guns are vehicles and therefore may never be in a
building, pillbox or entrenchment.

:/

yeah i'm planning on restating all the early war British Tanks and introducing the Close support varients that provoided smoke and he.

BJaffe01

Latro said:

Heya:

Didn't they mean they behave like vehicles for some specific purposes?

L

LETE said:

Perhaps, but unfortunately they didn't explain what they meant and left us with that single statement.

I sent an email off to FFG a few days ago to ask what the official ruling is, havent heard anything yet.

I think we should do this with alot of the question we have about FotB aswell, this might get them to put a FAQ out sooner rather than latter

Heya:

Mayber they're SWAMPED, 'cos I sent them like a gadzillion questions about FotB!!

L

2) Sabotage: some cards specifies which nation it affects, while others dont. But what if it is layed on a combined deck and you pick a card from the deck yourself... What happens then?

Hiyas!

This came up in my game. I try to use Sabotage cards very carefully.

L

Lete: yes I'm frustrated about the exact same thing. Sabotage on a common deck seems very strange.

Put the sabotage card in the top of the shared deck and speak: "if you (and only you) draw a card this shared deck, you will draw the sabotage card".