This is not a "how to", as much as a, well..."how to?"

The major hurdle I have currently is that the players in my gaming group are long time (as in playing D&D since there was a basic and advanced D&D in 1980) hack and slashers and I am concerned that I am going to be unable to teach these old dogs any new tricks.

As anyone who has set foot on the Acolyte's path will tell you, the game often has more in common with a good film noir than an all-out, everything exploding all the time, action thriller. Yes, sometimes there is intense action, but due to the scale of the forces arrayed against our valiant quasi-heroes, they need to be well-informed and well-armed to survive to make it to gaming session 2.

By way of example, let's talk about a guy who is playing an ex-guardsman. Odd events have been happening, including strange psychic phenomena. When he begins to get the feeling of being watched, instead of thinking about things rationally and possibily alerting the ranking acolyte who happens to be a psyker (as his character bio suggests that a veteran of several campaigns might) , he goes buck wild and lays down a swath of laz-fire that is enough to take down a charging hive tyrant!

In short, the group is not interested in gathering clues, working the populace for information or following the trail to the source of any xeno or chaos activity. Rather, they would rather kill everything in the area (EVERY area), every game.

I am pretty sure that this group is a lost cause but on the off chance it's not, what would you try to get these people to understand the way the game is "supposed" to be played?

My guess is that they want hack -n-slash, but more importantly you don't.

Have you tried talking to them? Take a game session out and talk about what they want out of a DH game and what you want out of a DH game.

Honestly if you all agree that hack-n-slash is the way to go, then there is nothing wrong to it. Make them the strong arm of their Inquisitor, the attack dogs if you will, that just go in and cleanse thing after the Inquisitor knows where to point them at. Either that or make them Alcolytes of a very strong arm type of Inquisitor, one of those who goes "I know there is heresy in this village, kill everything until the heresy is removed".

However after talking to them they agree to play by the style you want, the more investigative/film noir style of play, then you have every right to screw them over. Force them to use social skills they don't have, put them up against people (not necessarily enemies but people) who don't have their best interests at heart, but are more political and knowledgable about things. Throw them on a space hulk and give them a choice of two doors, both of which are alien, one says Reactor Room, the other says Airlock (kind of telling them that they need to go back the way they came and find another path) but they wouldn't know it without anyone with some kind of Xeno Lore. Make a adventure where everything points to the planetary govenor as the offending heretic, but with some really average investigative rolls can be cleared of all wrong doing, and the real culprit (the govenors assistant) discovered. They don't do that they implicate the planetary govenor, oh who by the way is a political supportor of Lord Hax, and how has a cousin in the Inquisition. Toss them against actual Inquisitors, until they learn.

But that last paragraph is assuming they want to do film noir/investigative style. If they don't, then well you're at a cunundrum. As a GM its your job to make it fun for them, and if they don't have fun spending entire game sessions trying to find who to shoot, well then there's your answer. You can take them out of their box, but if its not something they really want to do, the game is going to disolve into someone not having fun. Talk to your group and see what they want, tell them what you want, and see if you can come to an agreement.

If you can get them to agree to try something new for maybe a one or two shot adventure, roll them some pre-gens, toss them into a flim noir/investigative style adventure, and see if they like what they're doing. If they do, then they can roll their own toons, with some aid from you, work it all out, and blam fun ensues.

if not, well maybe this game isn't for your group. As great as the game is, its not for everyone's playstyle.

You can always meet them half way. Instead of shooting for film noir, go for the grittier side of grindhouse. That might please all parties and give an excuse for copious amounts of chainblades. ;-)

Just really give them what they want. Like was suggested above, point them in an obvious direction, perhaps working under some monodominant as part of a massive witch sweep of an agri-world, a real shock and awe campaign to frighten out a deeply entrenched cult of some sort. Along the way they get to kill lots of things; citizens and farmers who put up a good fight but are nothing compared to a well armed killer, 7 year olds ineffectually trying to defend their mothers with kitchen knives, and feeble crotchety old people just to name a few. Nothing says fun like going after some peasant woman whose on her knees pleading for her families life except for maybe when her 7 year old son runs in from the kitchen with a small steak knife screaming at you to leave his mommy alone, all the while swinging his arms about ineffectually almost like a lawnmower. Of course nothing beats actually pulling the trigger on the kid but failing to finish him off in one shot.

Oh the rewarding expressions on player's faces when you describe the kid hitting the floor screaming and twitching oddly, one hand hovering above the hole in his head twitching spazmaticaly while his eyes, wide in shock, stair up at nothing. All this time his heels continue to beat and kick the floor in a mad epileptic dance while he screams in a single monotone keening whale, stopping just long enough to take in another breath to scream out (and if you're really lucky, fate will smile on you and his gun will jam when he tried to finish the poor kid off now). Just be sure to avoid the knee-jerk reaction to inflict justice on the PC's. That would only help the players feel okay with what their characters did or are doing.

If you want dark and they want to kill, let them be killers ;-)

I'd say give them the action they want, let them fill up on slaughter, then encounter say, a greater demon. Then GM a bit unsubtly- "There's no way your weapons could even hope to hurt that thing" etc, and lead them by the hand through some roleplay and some investigatino, see how they take it,. It's painfully unsubtle, but it's worth a shot.

Graver said:

Now they buy armors if they can afford, gather information their targets before they go for capture (capture, not kill. I gave them a mission to find out if one trader was selling xenos items. It turned out he was law-abiding citizen of Imperium, but only after they had tortured and killed the trader and his family trying to find out where their shiny new xeno-weapons were hidden) and hire or requisition some back-up if opposition seems too tough.

First things first. You are not going to change your players. It's like trying to teach a pig to fly, you'll frustrate yourself and irritate the pig. If you want to play with these guys, you need to build a campaighn around them and tailor it to suit their playstyle. The nice thing about RPGs in general and Dark Heresy in particular, is that it can suit a vareity of playstyles.

Ask yourself, what does your group want? They want action, they are hack and slashers. Okay then, build a game to suit them. Have them working for an Inquisitor like Witch Finder Rykhuss or Astrid Skane who prefer a more direct approach. Organize them into a Kill Team who is called in when their Inquisitor needs heavy firepower and try to make challenging, dungeon crawling style missions. Like heading into the depths of the Shatters and cleaning out a mutant rebel stronghold or finding their way through the ruins of a space hulk infested with Genestealers. Build the game to suit them and you will both have more fun.

Torque2100 said:

Agreed. Seconded. Motion carried.

Wise words Torque .

loki_tbc , i'm curious. Given your group's evident monty-hauling hack-slashery, and th fact that they seem to love that style of play (nothing wrong with that of course), why did your group choose to play Dark Heresy ?

After all, on the face of it Dark Heresy is a 'gothic horror / investigation' game, not 'kill monster, steal treasure, repeat'. What made you guys choose to play this game?

A fair question. To be glib: It was the pretty book Seriously though, 3 of the members had played 40K and were fairly knowledgable about the setting, and I had just finished the Eisenhorn and Ravnor trilogies and was very excited about playing in that universe.

I think there are some great ideas here, especially the kill-teams and sword of a Emperor kind of things especially.

Torque2100 said:

Priceless comment!

I have the same problem in my group. If they can kill something, they will! It`s actually quite strange, this need to kill everything... It`s like they feel they have the right to dispose of lives if someone for instance resists giving information. I believe they are uncurable! Why: they think investigation is boring, and they play the same way in all the different rpgs we`re involved in.

kennetten said:

Sounds like they need some CP and maybe a cult of Khorne tries to recruit them.

kennetten said:

Well, if your players find games of investigation to be boring and you like running investigations, why not meet half way? Give them some investigations that revolve around them killing a lot of folks.

The =I= finds out about another nasty Logician plot underway in Sebillus. They have planted a lot of agents in positions of power in the various societies of the hive. The only way to identify one of them is each has an implant the same density as bone along their spine. 5 suspects have been identified but the only way to be sure is to dissect them. So the cell is sent out to find and dissect some powerful individuals who won't be too keen on being dissected or, in the case of the Logician moles, found out.

Once they kill the a certain Logician mole, he, while they fiddle with or remove his implant, will suddenly, with his last breath, spout out a preprogrammed response informing them of a courier of that logician cell who is delivering the message that they have been found out and instructions on what to do next. The courier is a poor hapless soul that has been programmed and implanted to deliver the message with his dying breath after a code phrase. So, now they have to off a couriers guards and then the courier while making sure they listen in on his last breath.

And it can just go on... ;-)

Everyone should have fun at the gaming table and no one be bored.

Hmmm, not bad. Could be fun!

Unless the players really don't go in for this sort of thing, I recommend they play cultists. If they kill everything in sight, they play the team that does just that!

You could certainly have a lot of fun with Dark Pacts and the like.

Many moons ago I ran a fantastic hack and slash game with 3 aspiring champions of Khorne, it was seriously awesome.

I have the exact opposite problem with my group, its a rare session where we actually manage to roll Inititive. Too busy talking too or having sex with every npc in sight.

I think the whole "you can't change your players" bit is an oversimplification.

Can you make someone who loves action, love in-depth investigation? Maybe not. But what you can do is make someone who loves action get that action without being an idiot and realizing that sometimes investigation means you get action and live - no investigation means you get lit up like a christmas tree and die like a stooge - AGAIN.

Consequences, consequences, consequences. It's just a question of how many dead characters you want them to burn through before they learn not to be idiots. Stay strong. They will learn, trust me. They may never be more then action junkies, but they will be smart action junkies.

Tactics matter, Reconaissance and Intelligence matters. Turn them into Navy Seals instead of letting them be Hells Angels.

Lord Kruge said:

Also what maybe is that you're not really changing anyone, they just may not have been exposed to this style of RPGs before. I mean I started on D&D way way way back in the Gygax days, and that was as tactical really as it came. However I love 40k, and if no one had ever exposed me to investigative style of RPGs I may never have known I liked it.

Sure you can't change what I like, but I may not know I like it until I'm exposed to it.

Lord Kruge said:

The risk there, of course, is they simply stop playing. Or you do. After all, how much fun is it for the GM to kill off yet another rerolled character? And how fun will it be for the player? Perhaps it should not be 'consequences, consequences, consequences' to much as it should be 'compromise, compromise, compromise'. As much as it's unfun to play with PCs that fail to play the game or their characters; it's also unfun to play with high handed GMs.

My sugguestion echos that of others here; find out what you and your players want in a game and then find the middle groud between those things.

True enough! My people would quit and go play Munchkin if I get all "uber-killy" on them

I think everyone here has some really good suggestions. I find that my group usually mellows out a bit after they see the consequences of their actions; and I don't mean the consequences of the GM 'punishing' them - that's not a GM's job - but it IS his/her job to make certain that the creatures and peoples of the game world react appropriately as their personalities would indicate (whether that means suffering graphic deaths at the hands of the PCs {Graver's descriptions in reply#2 will haunt my nightmares tonight}, pleading for reason, or pressing charges). I also agree that that your style of GMing should indicate to them how the game is 'supposed' to be played, more or less. Perhaps their Inquisitor wants proof of heresies committed and not just a body count. So far have their methods been successful? If so, then I agree with Xathess Wolfe as well as others - just put them in a situation where combat isn't especially useful - only when they look the monsters in the face should it make sense to fight, right? How are they successful otherwise?

Overall, I would suggest talking to them first - not with a lecture or demands, but just let them know how you feel - ask them for their input on how they feel about how the game is going. Maybe they sense something similar. Blowing things up and gunning things down certainly has its place against the enemies of the Galactic Imperium, but it shouldn't produce results in most cases - the enemies are just going to hide deeper when they hear gunfire.

You don't even need to worry really about giving them what you think they want, so much as you might worry about what makes sense in a realistically-, dramatically-portrayed game world. The more in depth the world is - the more it makes sense (in terms of motivations and feelings as well as physics and dice), the more meaningful it will be (and the actions taken within it).

Good luck.

loki_tbc said:

Doesn't sound like your group wants to play a RPG really, sounds like they want to play Gears of War. Actually sounds like they want to play Gears of War using cheat codes, even in Gears of War you die if all you do is charge in like an idiot.

How old are your players? It seems like they're just in it for the most childish level of power-fulfillment. Even the most gung-ho, hard-charging action junkie player I ever had, had managed to watch enough TV and Movies to realize that it might be a good idea to try and find out how many guys are supposed to be inside and if they're known to have machine guns before you kick in the door, and that given enough time to react, Law Enforcement will always outnumber and outgun you.

Sounds like your better off doing Munchkin or just dispense with the farce that they want to roleplay and have Lan parties on the weekends.

Or... you could try and bring them into the world of adulthood. Consequences doesn't mean Uber-killy, it means you get a much deeper adrenaline rush when you realize your character might actually die, and a sense of accomplishment when you don't.

You have to keep it real. If their actions should get them killed, you have to kill them, but try to show them other options. Let them know or find out that there was a way they could have done it differently that would have offered better chances of success. Is there one player who is more in tune with you? If so, try to bring him on board, one player who gets it can quickly help the others. If they're all the same, well, you're probably screwed.

It sounds like you want to run DH and you want to run a campaign that takes into account the depth and strengths of this type of campaign. Why compromise when there are other games, and more importantly, other players?

However, if these are long-time players of yours, they've developed the "kill and loot" mentality because they've had a GM who let them get away with it with no realistic consequences. If that GM is you, then it's kind of your own fault.

How To? Nova Nagilum gave you the answers you need in a friendly format.

Well, I'm having the problem that my guys DON'T think. Except for simply pointing and saying, "This is the heretics," they won't get it. And then use their guns to solve the problem.

Fideru said:

Then they die, the heretics die, and that Imperial Orphanage down the street dies in spectacular fashion. Better yet have the heretics holed up inside Imperial Orphanage and lets see how well they feel when they don't think and they end up wading through young children's bodies.

Don't make it easy for them. They want to go all Munchkin on you, let them, but let them see the consequenses of their actions. Have it so that had they done any kind of research they'd have realized that the Heretics had rigged a poison gas bomb in a church filled with women, children and old men all praying for the safe return of their Imperial Guards husbands, brothers, wives, etc etc.

Let them go in guns blazing and allow that Demonspawn to go free and cut down an entire hive subsector, so that as they come out they get to see the consequenses of their actions.

Have their guns going in kill a bunch of school children, and then later the irate parents and siblings of the children demand the Inquisitors arrest for murder, and if they don't get arrested it turns into a lynch mob. Let them gun down these people whose only crime is that they want justice for the manslaughter of their children and discribe, in detail, the site of a 13 year of girls head being taken off by a bolter round, and the look of utter hatred her eyes carry for them, because now they're not the heroes, but the bad guys.

But heck, let them go all munchkin. That's the problem with D&D, there never is any consequenses for your actions because its always down in some dungeon or abandoned tower. The heroes never deal with goblin females or goblin children, the Wizard never has a family inside his tower, and the demon is always terrorizing the family and collateral damage is always contained.

If they shrug off the site of carnage of innocents caused by their actions, or laugh it off, or act all tough that's all cool, DH has a mechanic in their that they automatically get corruption points for their characters. Heck if in one of the pre-gens I get corruption for watching one person get murdered and not being effected, killing an entire orphanage, school, church of innocents must be worth tons of corruption.

Aye me, if you can't engage in a spot of recreational pretend violence in 40k where can you?

I thought corruption was a result of warp-taint, not being a cold hearted bastard?

Surely one could freely murder 1000 children, as long as it wasn't done ritualistically, without gaining a pooint of corruption? Unless i have it wrong.

Locque said:

You don't have it wrong. That's the realm of insanity points, not corruption points. It's just like Warhammer Fantasy.

As to the original post: I know exactly how you feel. Too many people I know have only ever done D&D, and thus are as dense roleplay wise as a rock. Admittedly I was like that at first. But then I moved onto Warhammer Fantasy (before Dark Heresy was even being written). It was there that I got into the ways of hmm, maybe slaying everyting for xp isn't'' what the game is all about.

People have made good points on how to do that: Make sure there are very nasty consequences for the characters, both happening to them and around them. The fault of D&D is that there is none of that really. You don't feel connected to the game, because your focus is simply on the individual character and the group...everything else is just there for them; instead in Warhammer and Dark hersey that's not true.

As someone mentioned, it also could have been the GMs. Most examples I see of what a "good game moment" was are 'Oh and in this encounter we killed them like this...." Need to stop that for the most part. Until I see a good game moment that involved something other then combat, most groups will be hard pressed to see why it matters. So if you can't get them hooked on DH just yet., change the nature of your D&D to include more depth in it like Warhammer does. Give lasting effects and make the players understand the game isn't all about thier kills and power levels. They should feel attached to the setting and to the events unfolding and NPCs around them.

To simplify: Think of a game as one of those choose your own adventure books: You have more then one way to see the story, and not all the choices are right, that's what makes it an entertaining read. Your charcters should be thinking likewise.

Locque said:

I don't think you have it wrong either. But unless I'm remembering it completely wrong, and I don't want to give spoilers, but I could have sworn you received a corruption point, not an insanity point in the pre-gen.