I've been reading these forums for a week now, and I notice the things said about the Summoner class. Most people think it's overpowered, some think it's too weak. Yet, no one wants to do any calculations. And I think that's essentially the problem; no one 'wants' to take the time to calculate anything. Thus, every notion that has been put on the table is completely unjustified mathematically. But here's the point I'm trying to make.

A level one Summoner can spend up to 360 points to their Supernatural skills, namely Summon/Control/Bind/Banish/Zeon, or SCBBZ. (Scubz?) Magic Projection is useless to a pure summoner, as they don't cast spells and any Arcana that give them offensive/defensive abilities (say, High Priestess) also give applicable traits to use them with (in this case, 160). Even Zeon can be taken out of the equation if you take Magic Nature, thus leaving the Summoner with only four Supernatural Traits to increase with that 360 points. 360 / 4 = 90, so one could theoretically place 90 points into each of the four SCBB traits, not to mention the +10 per level, raising SCBB to 100 each.

Now let's take a look at the summoning chart. To summon a level 1 creature requires a check of 160. With a Summon of 100, a roll of 60 or higher is required, thus the summoner has a 40% chance of success, assuming five turns were spent on the ritual, which isn't a lot as long as you're not in combat. Taking this 'Summoner Assassin' idea, it would be all too easy to, as I said, summon the creature beforehand, and bind it for later use.

Any good/smart assassin would take plenty of time to set up before the kill took place, so it wouldn't be out of place to spend anywhere from even just a single minute to a whole day for this ritual, adding anywhere from +10 to +40 to the above Summon Check, thus increasing the chance of success by that same amount, and thus up to 80% if the ritual takes an entire day. By that point, even if the Summoner is completely unlucky and rolls 20 or less, the worst that could happen is that they'd lose the Zeon they would have invested into the summon, or 20 Points. That's not a lot to regenerate, even at level 1, and that's the WORST that could happen. And mind you, this isn't taking Summoning Modifiers into play (Page 178, Table 63).

But let's assume the summoner makes the check. Then what? Well, assuming for some reason the Summoner decided to summon something that would want to kill them, a Control check is needed. Let me go on record and say, for one, I don't see the need in summoning demons and devils exclusively, as most people seem to think of when they hear 'Summoner,' and in the context of Gaia that's a very quick way of garnering the Inquisition's attention. It would behoove the Summoner, in many instances, to instead barter a pact or deal with a summon instead. The time old "sacrificial lamb" and whatnot.

However, if, for whatever reason, the summoner NEEDS to use Control, the check would be out of this character's reach except on a roll of 100 assuming 5 turns of Ritual. I believe this is purposeful, as gaining near complete control over some of the things newbie summoners tend to want to summon is incredibly powerful, and one of the lead causes of the "sumnerz r 2 OP lulz!!11!1" debate. If the Summoner wishes to control something of this nature, yes, they will have an incredibly difficult time, and if I were to condone this sort of nature, I would suggest taking points out of Bind, or better yet, Banish, in order to do this. However, keep in mind that Tables 62 and 63 also apply to this check, so taking one day for the ritual increases the chance of success, assuming Control of 100, from 1% to 40%, and then adding whatever modifiers from 63 the character was able to get. Also keep in mind that most rituals in semi-fictional literature to summon powerful demons take much longer than a day, hence the balancing factor of Summoning; yes a Summoner can summon powerful creatures, but without the time to do so SAFELY, they'll probably be eaten instead.

Bind is another candidate for taking points out of Banish in order to perform, mostly because the check is higher and more important in most cases. However, assuming 100 Bind and a One Day ritual, the chance of success is 40%, plus modifiers from 63. If this is done successfully, the character can now summon this level 1 creature in a single round. THAT is a HUGE advantage to a summoner's power. Why walk around with this giant beast of a creature, acting as a beacon to the Inquiz, when you can literally snap your fingers and have it appear before you in only six seconds? Bind them into one of THESE:

and call yourself Ash, for all I care, but you cannot honestly tell me that Bind isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread if you're a Summoner.

Banish is an odd one. It consistently has the lowest check of the four, and you would think that if you came across one, your bound creatures, or Pokemon, could kill it, but with enough banish you wouldn't need to. This is fine for Paladins, I suppose, but mostly a toss away for Summoners. Once you put 100 DP into it, every level after that gives enough points to halve the increase to the check for Banishing a same level poke--er, creature, whereas the others just plain start higher. So you can typically afford not to put too many into Banish. In fact, I'd probably recommend it; more points into the first three and you can perform the rituals on higher level creatures, thus allowing you to better deal with just about everything. Not increasing Banish at all would give +30 points to each of the Checks above.

And being smart about it makes all the difference. Summon your creatures ahead of time, even if you don't bind them. Say if you're level 3 and trying to better PREPARE to summon a creature. Note the emphasis on 'prepare.' This is where being a good Boy Scout comes into play; Always Be Prepared. Summoning is all about it. Take the time to make Occult rolls or whatever the GM wants to find out information on a creature. Learn what it prefers to eat. What it's habits are. Then, summon it with an object of it's desire, or if it's sentient, be prepared to hear it out on it's demands, but also be prepared to make your own. The larger the demand, the more the creature has to give from table 63.

If you're summoning something that would probably try to kill you, for one, you're probably already on the wrong track. But if you must, be prepared to control it. If Control isn't an option, or if it doesn't work, decide if the creature is threatening enough to warrant an immediate Banish, or use a spell to halt it so you may try again. A good reason for summoning in groups, beyond the normal perks, is so that summoning a naturally hostile creature will have more than just one person to deal with. Maybe one character has a high Banish and is PREPARED to use it if someone is about to die, preferably out and away from the place the summon will appear, but still in the circle. Or maybe it's that aforementioned Paladin and his Ban(ish) Hammer at the ready.

There are a number of different factors that can be put into a ritual than simply numbers, but above all the class is about preparation. Summon that Efreet a year ago with a promise to bring it combat whenever you summon it. Ask for the rust from it's axe. +10 to summoning it next time. It wants more. A new axe. Promise to have one for it and request a chip of it's claw. +30 total. Maybe you'll even up the ante with an axe even better than the one asked of you. Maybe the guy you're going to assassinate, Mr. Summoner Assassin, happens to have a magical weapon you don't want, but are willing to use as a bargaining chip in order to wreck havoc on your mark's castle, from the inside. And you'll give it to the elemental in exchange for the creature's true name. Maybe it's a REALLY powerful axe, and worth the creature's servitude within reasonable demands. (Breaking down a fortress wall would be alright, but having it pick up your children from school will get you chopped in half.) Reason with the creature if you can, Control them if you can't. No GM worth their salt would disagree with a player having to roleplay in order to gain a summon, in my opinion. That, and this gives the GM complete control over which summons the Summoner is allowed to have.

Most people I've read talk about Summoner on completely opposite ends of the spectrum; either it's too powerful or it's too weak. Those who say it's too weak are the ones trying to summon three Lords of Darkness in a single turn at level 2, and it's those same players who cause others to say it's too powerful. If Summoners around the boards would stop trying to summon 3+ level summons above themselves, which in fact would be overpowered, it wouldn't be a problem. You can summon a level 16 creature at level 1 if you wanted to. You can summon a level 8 at level 1 with 97% success if you wanted to. That doesn't mean you should, and even if you do, you'll probably end up dead or possessed. A Warrior can't hit a target with 100% success either, so stop trying to break the system and maybe you'll start to see why the class is powerful in different ways. Maybe you can't/shouldn't summon that Slayer, but you can summon a Grendel or five.

If the player is making a summon, don't let them stat it completely. Have them use maybe a fourth of it's DP, and the GM will balance it out with the rest. Better yet, have the player's research function as method for them simply describing the creature, and let the GM do all the work mechanically. And be creative about it. The Summoner in my group described a weak creature with some weak psychic abilities, but uses them with Link Matrices to improve the group Psychic's Potential. The creature itself isn't very powerful, and they die easily, but it provides the Summoner's ally with a source of improved psychic ability. Creative, useful, but not overpowered and completely under GM control, mechanically speaking.

I applaud you, you gave me something really good to read and have also given me ideas on how to direct my summoner in the campaign I just started GMing. Let me ask you this though, given you've put a great deal of time and thought into this already: How do you see binding being used? Once it's bound, it just automatically comes out when the summoner calls it? (Within a turn to make it material.) And then it just goes back into it's 'ball' when their done? Or are checks needed at all for this? It's my biggest question atm, so I'm hoping you or someone can answer this for me. Thanks. ^^

Page 177; a Passive action that takes a full round.

Thanks for pointing that out bud. I've read that paragraph like two or three times, but having it pointed out helps.

Yep. And remember that as a passive action it can be used if the summon is close to death. A very useful tool with familiars.

I have to say I agree with you. I am the GM for our group so I don't really get to build my own character. But if I were playing I would play a summoner for sure. Summoners are rewarded for being creative in game. And planning ahead. They just don't throw fireballs, or any other one action big attack. At first they may seem to be one of those classes that trades out of combat butt kickery for out of combat utility. But, if they are smart, their out of combat abilities can make them very useful in combat (or at least their summoned beasties can be).

Since they are all about preperation and doing things out of combat, it is very important for a GM to treat them properly. First of all they really should not be allowed to build their own creatures, the temptation for a player to build a highly efficent killing machine at 0 or 1st level is just too strong. Also A GM need to pay attention to controlling the creatures. For example a summoner might want to summon a powerful Maiden of Light. There good and would totally be interested in protecting the village from rampaging nasties. However they are powerful beings and do not apriciate just being summoned byt he whim of a mere mortal. Unless you can banish he in a hurry or control her. The Maiden of Light is likely going to want some retrobution against the summoner.

Granted the maiden of light example might have been a little extreme, and different GM's would likely control the creature differently. But, my point is the it can often be up to the GM to keep a rampant summoner under control.

The Previous example of the Effriet, in my oppionon, is the very sort f thing that goes too far. But a good GM needs to remember that powerful monsters are not just servants (unless under control) and I would say do not liked being summoned by mortals so far beneath them. I would likely let the player try but then make sure that the Effriet is doing things on its own to get out from under the control of the summoners. But I don't see this as a bad thing, or even as a GM punishing a player for trying to stretch the rules too far. I see it as oppertunites for cool role playing. This more than anything is what I love about summoners.

You're right, most powerful summons wouldn't enjoy being called at whim by a summoner. But again that's where bargaining chips and using the creature's natural affinities come into play. A Maiden of Light, for instance, is described as often watching from afar and coming down to aid (or punish) mortals. A character who follows the light of C'iel and thus has a pure heart would be a lot more likely to receive aid than a wicked killer. Even better if the character has Elan with some of the Beryls, but someone with Elan with the Shajad. A persuasive, or even seductive, summoner might even be able to sweet talk the Maiden into aid, though without immortality this would be extremely unlikely.

I have to disagree that the Efreet example goes too far; the fire elementals do enjoy combat, so much that they actively seek out new weapons that don't melt in their hands, as noted in their creature entry. Of course, again, the summoner's ability to persuade goes very far even in the case above. Other creatures, like Shadows, take a liking to more powerful creatures, though whether that means higher level or simply more physically/magically powerful is up to that specific Shadow. Tailoring the pact towards the specific summon is more or less a tug of war between the player and GM, except that the idea is to give some and get some, rather than take it all and pull the opposing party into the mud. No matter who ends up getting dirty in the end, the game will eventually suffer.

My point was not to point out the behavior of a Maiden of Light, or an Efrite, but to point out, that as the player uses smart role-playing to try to gain the use of more and more powerful creatures it is the responsibility of the GM to role-play back, to make sure that the summoner does not get out of control.

I mean if a 1st level summoner put most of his points into summon and then spend enough time it is possible that he/she could summon an level 10 Maiden of Light (I haven't done the math to see exactly how many points she/he would have to sink into summon or how long the ritual would be, but I am pretty sure it can be done)

And if the Maiden of Light shows up and says "Hay, I am a good guy, your a good guy. Sure I'll Kill your enemies for you." You could quickly run into some balance issues.

Sorry for double post, I his Publish to soon.

I like the idea that summoners can try to summon things that are beyond their ability to control. I like the idea that summoners can if the need is great summon some things that are much higher level then they are. But I think these actions should be risky. And I think the Player should come up with plans to try to be as effective as possible. The GM should not say, Wait, no way am I letting you summon an Efriet, they are way too tuff for this adventure. The GM should be just as creative as the player in controlling the summoned creatures to keep things in balance. I think this interaction can make for some great game elements.

A summoner could easily summon a level 12 at first level, up to a level 15 with a Summon roll of 90+. Their CBB, however, would suffer, hence the innate balance of the class. Yes, it's possible to summon a near god, but without the power to control them, you're probably screwing yourself over.

Just curious how you find summoners when it comes to zeon regeneration. MA multiples are expensive for most of the summoning classes and without The Gift RoW you can't take superior magic recovery. Gets expensive quickly to keep something summoned, under control and bound to you.

If you summon something and control it, you only have to pay zeon once for summon and once for control. If you bind something you have to pay to bind and not regenerate those points until you release the creature from the binding.

I don't think the Zeon requirements are all that high compared to that of a wizard.

The daily cost can quickly add up. Suppose I have 2 level 2 creatures bound to me, thats 40 zeon a day to maintain the binds. Without taking the Gift for superior magic recovery a level 2 player is probably only able to regen 10-30 zeon a day. MA multiples without the gift is kind of an expensive way to increase your regen.

Sure you can't do it every day. But compare that you your HP regen of just about every character. It should take you fighter longer to regain his life points after a fight then it will for a summoner to regain his zeon.

I do see your point. 40 zeon used in a battle could take days to regenerate, but an actual wizard will cast more than that per spell. They could easily use over 100 zeon or more in a single fight.

Compared to a spell casting wizard, Summoners don't have the same zeon requirements.

Its not a 1 time cost to bind a creature, you pay that 20 to bind them, than pay 20 every day to keep them bound. Having 2 creatures bound will probaly drain your zeon faster than you can regenerate it.

wizuriel said:

Actually it is a one time cost, it is just a one time cost that you can not regenerate until you release the creature from the binding. It actually makes having a good zeon recovery less important, because you can not regenerate lost zeon from having a creature bound, no matter what your recovery is.

I can see how a summoner might want to get the advantage that doubles their zeon recovery, but since they have to get the gift advantage first it makes it basically cost 3 CP for the very lowest level of advanced recovery. You essentually waste the 2 advantage that lets you cast spells.

Curious where your getting binding is a 1 time cost? I'm going off page 178 (2nd black paragraph) where it says you must pay the binding cost each day while you have the creature bound.

Page 178. A summon that costs 30 to bind initially costs 30 each day afterwards. Thus, with a pool of 200 points, a 3rd level summon could be maintained for 6 days before factoring in regeneration. I would allow a summoner to take select Magic Advantages even without the Gift; otherwise there's really not much else the summoner could take if they want to enhance their trade.

Arcana Exxet allows a character to buy Zeon Regeneration Multiples instead of Zeon Accumulation Multiples. Half the DP cost, and they do exactly as it says.

pirouette said:

That would help a lot.

wizuriel said:

yep, your right, I was thinking a familure