The text of Alliance says that you ignore the gold penalty to PLAY cards from a house of your choice: does it mean that during setup OOH cards cost 2 gold more for the OOH gold penalty?

I think this works this way, because cards placed face down during setup are not played, so the agenda will not apply.

So, looking at the different wording, do the other treaty agendas (for example Treaty with the North) allow you to ignore the penalty during setup?

I think yes, because the text is: "Treaty. Ignore alla the OOH gold penalty on stark cards. Each opponent without aTreaty agenda needs 5 fewer power (to a minimum of 10) to win the game" It doesn't talk about playing cards...

That is indeed correct since during set up cards are neither "played" nor "put into play"
Heres what Im curious about, does Alliance the agenda prevent you from having Alliance the plot since both cards have the same name?

Yes. The difference in wording on the different Treaty agendas is significant and work the way you suppose. Whether intentional or an "obvious mistake"? Let the debate begin.

The "Alliance" agenda does not limit the use of the Alliance plot. The Agenda is not technically part of your draw deck or your plot deck (you don't, for example, get a deck of 59 cards + 1 agenda). Heck, if there was an event called "Alliance," having 3 copies of it in your draw deck would not stop you from having a copy of the Alliance plot card in your plot deck.

Wow, with the Alliance plot and Agenda in play at the same time this might kind of make tri-house decks possible. Now to find any actual reasons for making one other than "just cause"

I think its intentional, the Setup phase was obviously considered when making the card (the very first rule on the card) so it would be weird to assume that the designers Forgot how the Setup phase worked.
It might also be intentional for 2 reasons. It could work as a trap (Ackbar Salutes) in the sense that you could be tempted to run a large number of OOH cards therefore severely affecting your Setup hand. Secondly it could be another mitigating factor for its positive effect since the other two (opponent gets +1 influence or 2 gold) seems a little weaker compared to the other treaties (10 power to win the game)

DerBarchen said:

uhhh... no, that's actually not too weird an assumption at all, lol

They could say "After your setup", but they said "before your setup", so it should be ok to play OOH cards without penalty.

Uncle Joker said:

The "Before your setup" is just the timing for when you announce the other House. It does not create an "implied" change to the meaning of the word "play" in the rest of the ability. The agenda only wipes out OOH penalties added in when using the "play" mechanic. Setup uses a completely separate "setup placement" mechanic. No matter when the House is announced, you need to specifically say "placed during setup" in order to affect those gold penalties.

Let me re-post, and expand, my thoughts from another thread:

You're arguing that there is a distinct difference between "play" and "place during setup," with regards to the out-of-house penalty.

If this is true, then there is no out-of-house penalty for "placing during setup." The words, "Cards affiliated with a different House cost 2 additional gold to place" are never mentioned in the official rules nor any of the FAQs. Any time that the rules refer to an out-of-house penalty, it only mentions "playing" the card. This includes the section on the setup phase.

On a slightly (very slightly) related note, from the official rules, in reference to the Shadow mechanic, Shadow cards are considered "played" when they are placed on the field face-down. Though, the rules specify that there is no out-of-house gold penalty in this case.

This leaves a few options:

1) The rules are wrong.

2) There is no out-of-house gold penalty when placing during setup (this is debunked by the the Neutral House card).

3) "Placing during setup" and "Playing" are the same when it comes to out-of-house gold penalty. The Neutral House card only mentions "place during setup" for clarification sake.

I am only looking at the Rules and FAQs given to us.

I think we need an official ruling on this card.

DerBarchen said:

This is not what the rules say. The rules say "Cards are considered neither 'played' nor 'put into play' when revealed during setup." This ruling is only referring to the revealing of the cards, and not the actual placement of the cards during setup.

sWhiteboy said:

It's not an argument. It is the wording of the rules and the FAQ:

(4.4) "Play" vs. "Put into Play"
Character, Location, and Attachment cards are
“played” from the hand during the marshalling
phase, by taking a player action and paying
their gold cost.
Event cards are “played” by placing the card
on the table, paying the specified cost, and
triggering the effect.

That is your basic definition of "playing" cards. Does placing Setup cards match this definition?

sWhiteboy said:

Incorrect. The rules for placing setup cards in the Core Set (p. 9) specifically imposes it, "played" or "placed." After all, the title of the section is "Place setup cards."

sWhiteboy said:

We can get into the technical terms here if you want. Since "playing" includes it coming out of your hand (consistent with the Shadow mechanic's definition of cards being "played" into Shadows - and City of Lies counting against Fear of Winter), when you place the cards face-down during the Setup phase, they could technically be considered to have been "played" in that they come out of your hand. However, they are "played" face-down. So it is the fact that the "How to conduct Setup" rules specifically apply the gold-penalty to playing them face-down in this context that creates an OOH gold penalty during Setup, not the standard gold penalty definition described on p.12 for Marshalling. Cards are then "revealed" once they have been placed.

As such, even if you want to call taking a card and putting it face-down in front of you when you place setup cards "playing" the card, you are "playing" a face-down card, for which all information is hidden. Flipping them over certainly does not fit the definition of "play." So you cannot respond to "playing" a card during Setup in any meaningful way.

sWhiteboy said:

As described above, there is a 4th option - that the rules separately and independently impose an OOH gold penalty on playing cards from your hand during Marshaling and placing them during Setup - regardless of whether you want to call placing the face-down cards "placing" or "playing."

sWhiteboy said:

But what you are forgetting is that even if taking a card out of your hand and putting it on the table face-down during Setup is considered "playing" a card, you are playing it when it has no public identity. I have no idea if it is OOH or not until it is revealed (which is neither playing not putting into play). It's the same reason why you cannot Respond to playing a "Lord" character when you put Tyrion into Shadows from your hand. That is playing a card, but since it is face-down, it has no identity as a "Lord" that you could then Respond to. It has no identity as anything else (character, location, attachment, event, Lannister, Stark, etc.), either. Same thing holds for Setup. If you are going to impose the "played from your hand" OOH gold penalty rule from p. 12 for Marshaling on cards placed during Setup, there is no way to enforce it - or to technically initiate it - because the face-down cards have no House identity. That is why there is a separate rule for imposing an OOH gold penalty during Setup - written on p.9.

The card doesn't need a ruling. The 2-gold penalty imposed on placing Setup cards and the 2-gold penalty imposed when Marshaling cards are created by separate parts of the rules. They are equivalent in value, but not in applicability. As such, they must be contradicted separately.

ktom said:

I want to say that I am fine with the current ruling (that the OOH penalty is not reduced during set-up), because I think that decks could end up too strong otherwise.

In the end, my real issue is with the way that the rules are worded.