Lord Ork said:

I used Websters dictonary which makes use of the word crude in it's defintion. The traditional use of carnal though does have evil overtones. While it doesn't say evil, in pratice when people are talking about sexual pratices that lead one astray and down the path of evil and darkness and sin they have chosen to use carnal. And by using carnal instead of another word they are able to establish a kind of sexual act with out saying which sexual acts count.

A more conservative person would likely say anything not meant to produce a child counts as carnal. For someone more liberal it may be a simple as non consenting sex. Thus they can talk about it with out offending anyone. The idea of what is and isn't carnal is very subjective.

I really don't think they are trying to say anything about sex. They aren't condeming it. They aren't saying it's evil. They aren't listing certain pratices as bad. They just claim that those who follow Slaanesh are the kind who engage in carnal pleasures, which is a very subjective and vague way of discussing sex.

Nekros22 said:

I think he has a point - yes, it is a black-and-white interpretation, but only because the image propagated by the majority of the media is one of black-and-white as well. From the developments I have seen over the past years, the western world is definitively changing to become more awkward when it comes to nudity, whereas we conversely see a rise in the depiction of violence that was unthinkable a decade ago. As Lord Ork said, in a way it's just a very twisted idea of morality to condemn something so harmless when, at the same time, society has little problem with something that should be considered much worse.

Does anyone remember the heated debate about the "hot coffee" mod for GTA San Andreas, for example? Gods forbid that there was a way that people could modify the game to have a non-excessive simulation of a sexual encounter in a game that was all about police corruption, robbery, mass murder (with chainsaws) and selling drugs! And then we had the media outrage at a barely visible sex scene between two consenting adults in Mass Effect...

And as for Clinton - if it wasn't so much the sex that got him kicked out, why did he have to lie about it in the first place? Why the massive investigation and the need to hold a speech to the entire nation? Sorry, but I don't buy that. And he was a great President. A real shame he had to go.
Goes for a lot of people, apparently. Wikipedia is full of entries about senators and other politicians who had to quit just because they had a prostitute. As I understand it, for some states this might be simply a matter of law - but on the other hand, why do such laws exist?

Lord Ork said:

Mhmm, I can't really agree there. I think that the Chaos Gods twist and warp people's taste as much as they change their morals. It may start out as simple pleasure, but at some point the corrupted will simply want "more" - and we can already see where "more" leads to when looking at things that are considered dirty, kinky or outright forbidden, either by a social taboo or a true law. Naturally, these things will offer a kick of its own just because they are regarded as such, which will only further enhance the experience. In a way, it is also a journey of self-discovery and exploration, as people will simply "try new things out" because the old stuff got boring. I've had this feeling, and I am pretty sure many of you did, too, particularly in these days where it is easy to get "inspiration" through the media.

As for Slaanesh him/herself - I think the label "at the expense of others" is still accurate, simply because Slaanesh doesn't care how the victim feels. It can be another willing cultist, or it can be a captured slave. By not promoting a difference, Slaanesh ultimately sides with the dominating part and neglects the recipient. In a way, this is also symbolic of the relationship between Chaos God and worshipper. Only the mighty and powerful are worthy of their God's fickle attention and gifts. Minions are nothing more than animals to be used at their pleasure. In this case, quite literally.

As a historical aside.... You guys do realize that the impeachment of Bill Clinton failed and he served out his full term in office, right?

Actually, no. Or rather, I must have forgotten the details - I only remember the massive media coverage and the heated debates and the whole hubbub which was in the news for a long time even here in Germany. Honestly, thanks for refreshing my memory!

He was forced to resign from the Supreme Court, tho. Maybe that's what got me confused. His term didn't run much longer so there was a bit of overlap with all the bureaucracy and the ongoing coverage.

It appears to me that the majority of posteurs (so to speak) in the thread have succeeded in failing to note one - albeit absolutely pivotal - thing.

Slaanesh is not being shied away from sexual connotations due to FFG's concern about not being able to sell to the widest audience possible, no.

Quite frankly, he is being shied away from sexual connotations simply because most normal humans - let alone abnormal heretics - in the 41st millenium are not capable of having sex. Just look at the augmentations, the masses of cables & wires awkwardly preventing a large number of the population from interacting orally - and also constituting a suffocation hazard, the distorted body proportions, the repulsive scarification, etc.

Remember Humans didnt bring Slaanesh into existence.

The Eldar did it. They have no augmentiation that involves the human kind of augemtation. Lots of carnal pleasures there. But i certainly believe that the masses (read potential cultists) which are able to multiply on hive worlds could be used for lots of carnal pleasures in Slaaneh's name.

Not everyone is a emotionless Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Mostly the upper crust of Imperial society will probably of any type of intercourse. But that upper crust is most probably to be pure of taint. Or the Inquisition has work to do.

Kael said:

I don't know which connotations have the word "carnal" in your country (whichever it is). But in Spain we don't have any evil connotatios (save for religion) associated with it.

Etymologically "carnal" means "fleshly". So, carnal pleasures as those related to the flesh (sex, eat, drink,...), as opposed of spiritual or soul pleasures (art, conversation, meditation,...). More specifically, carnal is more often used to refer sex. It's not an everyday word, but you can still use it as a cultism if you want to speak about sex using more uncommon worlds. You can even say that the relationship between two persons are merely "carnal", or that they are involved in carnal activities. Only if you are a priest, or an extremely conservative person that means something evil.

Lynata said:

I must have written it bad, because that sounds very similar to what I intended to say.

Lynata said:

I mostly agree. Being the excesses a mark of chaos, the imperium won't look with good eyes a clearly promiscuous person. Also, life promoted by the Ecclesiarchy would be one of contention and sacrifice, that is, one which keep workers working and away from futile distractions.

On the other hand, I think they wouldn't enforce too much a sexually virtuous life. I see it like in the Middle Ages. Clerics were more worried about Faith, servitude and taxes than to the virtuous life of the peasants. Although they still promote chastity and so, they were not very worried about it. So, feudal society wasn't really so much puritanical as we use to think (much less than victorian and posterior eras).

Still, as the Sisters of Battle seems to be more "pure" than the old days clergy, I think they would be remain virgin and chaste as part of their total dedication to the emperor cult. They are supposed to live a monastic live away from normal life activities.

Andor said:

Still, he had to beg forgiveness of his people, which is rarely done by any president. He didn't ask forgiveness for any killing incident.

Lord Ork said:

It is due to religion that carnal pleasures sounds evil. I'm fully aware of the words orgin of meaning fleshly. But Several hundred years of the Catholic churches use of it in a non positive way has left an imprint. It is not a word that is often used (in regards to pleasure at least) in a non clean or good way. There are many ways to use the word, but it's most often use and it's historic use was to refer to sex in a way that was not good. Now on an extermely conservetive bent that is pretty much all forms of sex not for the purpose of having a baby.

My argument about the use of the word is based on it's historic use. And it's historic use still to this day in the minds of many (at least State side anyway) will conjur up images of sex that aren't always good and positive.

It's no different than the word gay. Despite the fact that it means happy it's current use forever cements in peoples the idea of homosexuality. If you were to use the word gay instead of happy you'd draw odd looks. Same with carnal. Due to the Church's use of the word it conjures up certain images of sex.

Lord Ork said:

It is due to religion that carnal pleasures sounds evil. I'm fully aware of the words orgin of meaning fleshly. But Several hundred years of the Catholic churches use of it in a non positive way has left an imprint. It is not a word that is often used (in regards to pleasure at least) in a non clean or good way. There are many ways to use the word, but it's most often use and it's historic use was to refer to sex in a way that was not good. Now on an extermely conservetive bent that is pretty much all forms of sex not for the purpose of having a baby.

My argument about the use of the word is based on it's historic use. And it's historic use still to this day in the minds of many (at least State side anyway) will conjur up images of sex that aren't always good and positive.

It's no different than the word gay. Despite the fact that it means happy it's current use forever cements in peoples the idea of homosexuality. If you were to use the word gay instead of happy you'd draw odd looks. Same with carnal. Due to the Church's use of the word it conjures up certain images of sex.

Voronesh said:

I'm fairly sure he was being sarcastic (given that people obviously have to have sex, else they couldn't procreate). I was confused at first, but he finally had me at "choking hazard", and I was half-tempted to add that another factor would be that everybody dies before reaching the age of maturity.

Voronesh said:

Codex fluff says that under Vandire's reign, the Scholae Progenium became like warehouses that sold orphans to the nobility - as lust slaves. So certainly Imperial nobility has a great potential for decadent sexual excesses. There will be lots of little " Comte de Sade 's" amongst their ranks (heck, FFG's own Myrchella Sinderfell is very likely inspired by Countess Bathory ), and you probably do not want to know what really happens in some of those locked chambers of a hive world's upper spire and what becomes of the girls and boys that disappear from the lower levels. What differs humanity from the Eldar is that this stuff tends to happens in secret, and the most excessive orgies are likely limited to a comparatively small number of decadent nobles (that said, say, ~5% out of millions of nobles is still a fairly big number), so it simply doesn't reach the level of what happened back then when Slaanesh was born.

As you said, the Inquisition may intervene - but they only become active when a certain border has already been crossed, and even then only when they learn of it. Nobles in the Imperium are mostly free to do what they want. A serf's life isn't worth very much, as can be read in numerous descriptions of the setting (remember the Spyre Hunters from Necromunda? young nobles who go into the lower hive to kill a few gangers because it's fun to them) - though members of this class clearly also have the resources to simply steal people and abuse them in secrecy, as few will miss some poor kid from the ghetto, and fewer still will demand an investigation, especially one that involves the upper levels of society.

The Ecclesiarchy may preach, and the Inqusition may keep an eye out for cult activities, but I do not believe that there are actually laws against a noble having "some fun" at the expense of others. Fun of the sort that would be illegal after our modern western world laws, but "not yet bad enough" in the Grim Darkness of 40k. The tricky thing is that this fun may often lead to the next level and cross the taboo zone, as the perpretrators have already tasted Slaanesh's calling.

@ Lord Ork: True, though I still think it would depend on the planet - much like it depended on the country in medieval times - if only because the Ministorum doesn't really have a lot of uniform policies on this and one world's faith can seem nigh-heretical to another ... just think about the differences already existing between the catholic church, the orthodox one, the protestant one, etc ... and dial that up to 11.

And yeah, SoB are pretty much "space nuns", so it would likely be better to compare them to real nuns (and with that to the monastic life you mentioned) than to real clergy.

I also agree about the negative (depending one one's PoV) connotation that seems attached to "carnal". But much like with many other concepts that have been propagated by religion, this connection has since been firmly embedded into everyday culture even beyond the sphere of influence of religious people. In my case, for example, I learned it from and adapted to it by how this term kept getting used in descriptions by novel authors and game developers. Nowadays, I guess it just sounds "dirtier" than similar words that once had the same meaning, and so people use it when they want to express that. In a way, it's just another facet of how a language evolves over time.

Lynata correctly observed that in my previous post I had, indeed, been sarcastic. I, for one, can't help thinking that the Forty-first Millenium was not designed as a procreation-friendly universe in mind. Yes.

I wasn't aware of "carnal" bad connotations, outside of puritanical circles.

In my country we have a long, long history as self nominated champions of catholicism. Of course, in these days (which lasted until last century), carnal meant evil, because body pleasures were considered evil. But I think nowadays is more refined speaking to carnal pleasures than using some more vulgar words.

Reading that section, it seems to be doing the opposite of what you think; it says "Slaanesh isn't just about sex", because the orgy is the stereotype of "excess". But it's trying to point out that Slaanesh is about more than just that.

I think part of the problem here is that when you get right down to it, evil in 40K isn't really a moral question so much as a stylistic one. I mean when you get right down to it there's nothing intrinsically evil about wearing armour with spikes all over it, but it's still what Chaos worshipers do because the doctrines of Chaos have less to do with moral goodness or evil, and more to do with what looks most like the cover of an Iron Maiden album.

I mean there's a reason that Chaos has always been one of the most enduring elements of the Warhammer mythos - technically they're supposed to be the embodiment of all that is worst and darkest in the human spirit, but in reality they're kind of the Gods of Awesome.

Chastity said:

Only for those whose spirit is already darkened and whose morality is already corrupted. It's easy for us to say something is cool and awesome (after all, that's what has gotten us into the hobby), but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of us would think differently were they actually subjected to the less pleasant things that are "part of the package".

As much as we might have juicy fantasies about encounters with Slaaneshi cultists or daemons in particular (rule #34 says it all), the in-universe reality would likely be somewhat more gruesome.

In essence, we need to discern between what's awesome for us as players who are not affected by the full extent of Grim Darkness™, and what would be awesome for the people who live in the setting.

I think something to keep in mind about the setting of 40K is how heavily it draws on certain real world themes, often by enhancing or exaggerating certain real world or literary ideas. One of those themes which contributes to the flavor of 40K is the medieval and renaissance Catholic Church and their set or morals - to a large degree many of the excesses of Christianity of the past are emphasized and darkened to create the religious feel of the Imperium. As a part of that, you have medieval sensibilities (or in some ways a modern caricature of puritanical morality) which in part defines morality. This leads us to carnality and sensuality being sinful along with the "heroic" followers of the Emperor rejecting pleasures of the flesh. This isn't a moral, religious, or political statement by Games Workshop or even a reflection of their attitudes - it is merely there to create a certain "grimdark" gothic sort of atmosphere.

Of course, there is also something to be said for Chaos being cool and sexy demons has always been a theme in fantasy, myth, legend, and literature.

My take on the Chaos Gods is that they do not only represent the evil elements of their domains, but every aspect. Slaanesh represents **** and torture, but also romance, brotherly love, the joy of spending time with friends during a celebration, and other such activities. Slaanesh is pleasure for good or bad, its just that sexuality is one of the most important pleasures to humanity.

Von Todkopf said:

You know there is quite a large group of people who would have to disagree with you... Humans are famous (notorious?) for finding ways to have sex despite (or because) of all the things you just descibed... and a fair lot more, actually.

I have a theory about Chaos and why it always seems so nasty.

Chaos is a reflection of human (and a few aliens too) emotions, ideas, feelings, and thoughts. As a result it should have many good elements as well as bad elements. The problem is that virtually all humans are taught that the Warp is evil personified, they are taught to not only hate and fear the Warp and its powers but things that they don't understand. All of this hatred and fear is reflected in the Warp, it twists it into something it doesn't have to be.

Well, the warp existed before the humans knew of it. And we have yet to hear about anything good coming out of the Eye of Terror, despite there being lots of species who still don't know about it.

I think the horrible truth is that, deep down, mankind ultimately is a flawed species, barely kept in check by laws designed to limit their own true nature in order to ensure survival of the community.*

Have any of you ever seen the movie "Sphere"? Same concept.

Perhaps the warp could be used for good (see psykers, especially the Emperor Himself), but in the end, it is most people's true self that would prevent this, not any kind of "false" collective knowledge about it. I'm not even certain said knowledge really is that common.

(*: these laws being the opposite of what Chaos is about - the ultimate freedom)

Polaria said:

Most of the population of the Imperium have zero augmentation. To suggest most normal humans in the 40K setting are physically incapable of having sex is hands down the most patently absurd defence of the 'all sex is evil' meme I've ever heard.

*cough*post#37*cough*

Lynata said:

Didn't use to be the home of the Eldar Ancestors, that is, the Eldar alterlife, before the Slaanesh birth. I think it wasn't such a bad place at that time.

I imagine the Warp in the same way described before. As the home of all dreams and nightmares, the "substance" of good and bad emotions.

Only that bad emotions are stronger and harmful.