Just read the Cain novels...he was hanging around and generally found the marines a bit intimidating. There was certainly no suggestion that even he, hero of the Imperium and all, had even the slightest authority in that mission beyond that of an advisor/observer.
Commisars
Psyx said:
Not so sure about that, considering that commisars are supposed to be fearless sticklers for regulations and the chain of command. I would expect them to take an Astartes boltshell to the face (possibly right after saying 'You have no authority to issue that order') before undermining the authority of the commisar's station by following unauthorised orders from people outside the chain of command.
And on the other hand the Astartes should have the brains not to threaten and undermine the discipline of the Imperial Guard by trying to boss around authority figures.
Ordering a commisar to do something is pretty stupid. Suggestion is a better way to go. Giving orders to people you have no authority to issue them to is seldom a good idea.
Actually, Commiars enforce regulations for the Imperial Guard NOT the Adaptes Astartes. Also, Commisars reckognize, or should reckognize, the authority and pressence of Space Marines. Think about what a single Space Marine does to encourage Imperial Guardsmen. Now think about what a Deathwatch Kill-team would do for morale on the battlefield. No Commisar in his right mind would dare to argue with a Space Marine.
Next, Space Marines often leave the Imperial Guardsmen to the General of the Regiment. When a Space Marine steps in and takes command of an Imperial Guard Regiment, something has gone terribly wrong. You also have to look into other factors here. This is Deathwatch not Codex: Space Marines. You're average tactical marine isn't going to take command of an Imperial Regiment, that would be the role of the Space Marine Captain.
What do you think a Deathwatch Chapain would do to a Commisar if that silly Commisar decided he didn't like the Chaplains outlook on this situation. I don't care how bad ass that Commisar is, the Chaplain is a more "pure" figure.
Stop using Logan as an example. How about Marneus and few people that have tried to declare him a heretic and want to bring him back to Terra for "questioning" due to the Exterminatus he ordered?
Siranui said:
You don't have to talk it out, just phrase it as a suggestion, rather than an order. That's the way it works.
Who is in charge of an infantry platoon? An LT. Who actually RUNS the thing? An experienced NCO. Do you think the sarge stands there and yells 'Tell your men not to to it like that, LT!!!'? No, because he's just undermined the IC's authority, bucked the chain of command, and weakened the entire unit.
A good platoon sergeant WILL do such a thing.
But a very good platoon Sergeant will talk to the Lieutenant apart from the troop and explain him what he should do, instead of demoralizing the troop when they see their Lt sucks at it
MexicanNinja said:
A good platoon sergeant WILL do such a thing.
Shout at an officer in front of the men? Hell, no! Great way to screw your career up. That's not how the military works. Regulation 6-2: I have 6 stripes, you have 2 - do as I say! The chain of command is absolutely sacrosanct. As soon as it breaks down, armies stop being armies.
No actual authority, but in the case of well known and respected Commissars (Yarrick, Gaunt, Holdt from Final Liberation), there would certainly be mutual respect, and Space Marines would no doubt take anything they said under advisement.
Baradiel said:
No actual authority, but in the case of well known and respected Commissars (Yarrick, Gaunt, Holdt from Final Liberation), there would certainly be mutual respect, and Space Marines would no doubt take anything they said under advisement.
Agreed, however, let some random commisar run up to my chaplain and start trying to order my kill team around. It will be a short lived moment for that sorry individual. Once my kill team has received the mission from our captain it's game time. Stand in my kill teams way and pay the price for questioning the Emporer's Will!
Bare in mind that a Commisar is primarily there to make sure the IG are exemplars of the Imperial Faith in the face of the enemy, duty, faith, courage rather than give orders or advise on tactics. With this in mind I think a commisar being teamed with Space Marines would be one example where the Commisar asks for someones autograph.....
For there part the Space Marines may view the Commisar with enough respect to at least consider his opinion on a particular issue.