It was an innocent mistake. When I was reading the rules I saw that we 'may' quest and off I went. We played the first few days with the idea that we could choose to quest and take more risk or we could take a round or two 'off' to deal with engaged enemies. In other words, entire Quest Phase as optional; no cards added to staging and no will-power vs threat comparison.

There was still a ticking clock in that our threat was going up at the end of each round, but it seemed very Tolkien-esque to be able to pause and gather our spirits before recklessly charging on into a quest when we're already facing enemies. We even commented on the good design that allows the players to throttle the pace of the game while still having a 'gathering threat', and we all agreed the more choices the players have the better. There was even a comment that without that choice the game would just be 'luck of the draw', because you would have to go go go even if it would be foolish to do so, and victory would have far less to do with our decisions and just whether or not we happened to have the perfect cards in our hands. It felt right that sometimes in the epic quests you take time to gather your wits and resources; and 'Once more unto the breach, dear friends' was just too fun to say after a tough round of combat and then back to questing.

Then I started checking out the forums and . . .oops. Re-read the rules and while I could make a (weak) case that the total will-power of questing characters is NA rather than zero when no characters are questing and therefore it is not possible to 'compare' it to the threat in the staging area, but I could not avoid that adding cards was based on total players not total questing players. Oh well. I guess it is quest quest quest, whether you are ready or not. I don’t know, the idea that you have to go out looking for more trouble while you still have two Hill Trolls in your face doesn’t seem . . . well, ‘fun’.

We played a few the right way (yes, we even won some) and talked it out and decided that until there are allot more cards to get a usable 50 in each sphere (especially MANY more ways to bring threat down) that we will continue to play with the Quest Phase as optional. Mainly because we want more people playing this game, and sure enough, even when we won (in a rules as written game) we talked about how 'lucky' we were. Quest as optional adds a great deal of strategy while not allowing you to forget about threat. It scales very well for solo questing less, and 3 or 4 questing more. Defeat is still a real danger but it is much easier to pitch a game when you don't have to say, 'Yeah, until they get allot of expansions out you'll lose most of the time, but . . . "

Anyway, great game. I didn't mean to 'mod' it right away, but I came by it by an honest mistake, and sense it is a co-op game and my playing sphere often includes pre-teens and wives that will move on to other games they feel like they can win . . . well you understand. The more the wife plays the easier it is to spend on monthly updates.

Game On!

I did the exact same! I got the idea in my head that if I just dont quest then my willpower will be NA. Obviously thats wrong but you make a good point about the pacing of the game being much more adjustable. I think theres nothing wrong with playing the game the way you find comfortable, if anything it just makes the game more fun for you and the rest of the players!

That said, doesnt it make it a bit too easy? I mean, you could just take a breather between every enemy/location and sort them out micro-management style?

Well, it comes down to what is too easy.

Play solo Tactics and it certainly does not feel like it is too easy. Play Rules as Written with four players with a Spirit player who knows what they are doing and even the regular game feels 'too easy' So, I admit we are going for a 'win most of the time (no matter how many players), but lose just often enough for there to be some good tension, and off we go. I come from an RPG realm where party wipe means something has gone horribly wrong. With Quest Phase as optional we are at about 80% win so, I think that is about right. With Rules as written we are at 40%, so . . . like I said, losing most of the time is hard to sell.

I just played solo tactics. Two terribly brutal losses! >.<

I know just how you feel, its tough enough selling the game to 4 players based on the fact that you need to buy two sets to make four 50card decks (Its why Ive modified the game to all players using 30 decks just like you have modified it to make the quest phase optional)
Haha thats funny, I come from an RPG circle where party wipe is a sign that the GM is having a good time!

I might make the questing phase optional though when trying to get used to how new cards work, theres nothing worse than having your learning experience cut short by trolls eating your face.

Tactics is just a flat out terrible questing deck. I found myself often sending a character on a quest in order to try and keep the threat increases manageable, but knowing that I couldn't win the quest. Needless to say, when you find yourself having to employ such a tactic, you are just delaying the inevitable. They are great defeating enemies, though. By the time my threat had rose to 50, most of the encounter deck was spent and the playing area had been cleared of all enemies.

Spirit is the other way around. Eowyn is a questing powerhouse, but they cannot defeat enemies. I was overwhelmed by mounting numbers of attackers and lost even though my threat was a measly 27. So, I made a tactics/spirit deck and I will try that today.

Titan said:

You had Legolas on sick leave or something?

With two Gondolin Blades on him he can place 4 progress per round on quests. About the only way Tactics can properly quest at the moment.

Not at all, in fact, Legolas killed a bunch of enemies. He is one of the reasons the play area was cleared of them. But there were a ton of locations out. I had to keep exploring them, to lower the threat on the staging area. I had one Gondolin Blade on him, but never drew the other. Unfortunately, he mostly spent himself on the locations. But if he hadn't, my threat would gone up even faster.

Titan said:

Response: After Legolas participates in an attack that destroys and enemy, place 2 progress tokens on that current quest.

Unfortunately that doesn't work - per his card text Legolas only puts progress tokens on quests.

CAlexander said:

The way that is read it is that Legolas puts progress tokens on the current quest in the same way that successfully questing puts progress tokens on the current quest. Meaning that both go on Active Locations before going on the quest.

Also it would make solo Tactics impossibly hard (instead of just really hard) since you would have no way of dealing with locations. Your threat would skyrocket and you couldn't do anything about it.

CAlexander said:

Rules, P.15 Travel

Any progress tokens that would be placed on a quest card are instead placed on the active location.

The "any" part seems to override Legolas ability (and his text does not mention an exception either), so I would say they do go to active Locations first.

Still, with the Blades, some help from Thalin and Gimli questing when available (if allies can handle the defense job) Tactics might progress in questing with Legolas ability when soloing. A unusual surge of Locations might drown them in Threat, that is also true.

The way I understand locations, is that any tokens that would have gone to the quest card instead go to a location, if one is active. This is what page 15 of the manual says. And there is no "only" keyword in Legolas' effect. As I interpret it, his tokens would go to an active location, just the same. I wish this wasn't the case. Legolas bypassing locations would have given me a much better chance to defeat that quest.

Titan said:

Anyway, rereading these rule sections made me realize I've been playing locations wrong all the time. I assumed the tokens you gain in the quest phase would go to a location even if it wasn't yet the active one... ouch!

I wonder about Legolas thought...according to the Golden Rule card text is superior to rules text. This would mean that Legolas' card text overrides the rules and would actually put progress tokens directly on locations? I played it that way and with the weak questers from the tactics deck, location swarm was the main reason for defeat.

jhaelen said:

If that rule only applied during the travel phase, there would be no way of getting rid of locations. Your characters aren't questing, so you can't earn tokens. There is no combat, so Legolas can't do anything, either. You would move a location into active position and then, it would stay there. In the meantime, if other locations come out, they would just be in staging indefinitely whilst contributing their threat.

faith_star83 said:

faith_star83 said:

I think this is right and I don't even think it overides the rules.

As Acererak points out, the rules state that whenever a progress token would be placed on the quest, it is placed on an active location instead.

Jhalen's point is that this sentence occurs within the travel phase, so may only be relevant when in the travel phase BUT you never actually apply progress tokens during the travel phase. Therefore the statement almost certainly relates to locations in general terms and not just to locations during the travel phase.

Ergo, Legolas' ability can put progress tokens onto an active location rather than a quest if an active location is acting as a buffer against the current quest.

faith_star83 said:

I agree with this, card text overrides rule text. If Legolas' ability says to put a progress token on the active quest, you put it on the active quest. Whether or not there is an active location is irrelevant, as the ability "breaks" the normal rules of play.

wrkrparasite said:

Except as already pointed out, this isn't neccessarily to the players' benefit. With tactics you are unlikely to be able to get a high enough willpower during questing to get progress tokens. If Legolas also cannot apply progress tokens to an active location, your staging area can get quickly overrun with locations, which you can't get rid of, as you have no way of getting progress tokens onto the current active location.

The golden rule states if a card contradicts the rulebook, the card takes precedence. But Legolas' ability doesn't really contradict the rulebook.

I'm sure Legolas's ability is worded as such just to prevent them having to word it.."place 2 progress tokens on the current quest, or on the active location if there is one."

pumpkin said:

Well, Legolas explicitly breaks the game rules by being able to generate progress tokens during combat. That being said, it looks like the original intent was for him to work within the regular rules for applying progress tokens (putting them on locations first), so I'll concede that I was wrong in my initial assessment. More info here: boardgamegeek.com/thread/646461/remove-progress-token-from-current-quest

I would say that Legolas only breaks the rules partially. He is able to generate tokens outside of the quest phase, but those are the limits of his "rulebreaking", once generated, the tokens follow the same guidelines as any other tokens that are generated when a location is active.

This discussion is happening over at Board Game Geek. There's an unofficial answer there too (Legolas puts the token on the location).

Can someone with a BGG account ask Zambo to check out the FAQ thread on this forum to see how we are doing with our current unofficial answers?

Same mistake here. I saw questing a optional as well. It could be integrated into the game by raising threat 3 or 4 points when you're not questing (loitering on sauron's doorstep is rather dangerous )