Well first let me start by me saying, the opinions expressed here-in are only that, opinions. I enjoy the game immensely, and thank the designers for putting it all together for us to enjoy. And on with my rant i suppose.

So i'm currently in a game playing an assault marine, and i'm trying to figure out where i want to go as a character, so i've been pouring over the tables quite a bit and to me, it just doesn't really make sense. I'll go into detail in a moment, but it seems like some talents were left out, and others are just pointless. And on top of that...some are just at really weird ranks.

Before i get to deeply into this, yes i realize probably all of this can be avoided with rational conversations with a GM and possibly Elite Advances, but i think these things shouldn't cost more points, just due to oversight, or possibly poor design. Its also possible i just don't understand what the over-all idea is.

To start, i guess i'll go with the ones that i feel are left out, and the most obvious of those, in my opinion are, Thunder Charge, Frenzy, and Battle Rage. To a (slightly) lesser extent, i also think Cleanse and Purify fits. Ok starting from the top, Thunder Charge just seems to be an assault marines thing. i run into people using my body as a weapon, until i get to the guy i really wanted to hit with my weapon of choice. On top of the fact that is missing, there's only one way to get it, be a Storm Warden. Ok, maybe that just gives them some flavor, quite annoying, but i understand it once. Then there's Frenzy and Battle Rage, Blood Angels only talents. ya, personal flavor again, ok, but what if you don't want to be from either of these chapters? Your melee (at the very least against hordes) will suffer. And the horde note is part of the reason i bring up Cleanse and Purify. Assault marines have long been shown as using flame weapons in close quarters to eliminate packed troops. Why are they denied a talent that benefits that?

As far as the useless ones go I'd list Takedown, Sure Strike, Precise Blow, Disarm, and Crippling Strike. Takedown...a half action for one (dodgeable/ parryable) attack, that has to do damage, and the enemy still gets a toughness test to shrug it off, all to stun it for ONE turn. Has anyone actually found a good use for this talent in combat? The few times i tried back in my DH days i only once managed to jump through all my hoops to hit and damage them, only to have them succeed the toughness test easily. Sure Strike and Precise Blow...wow called shots in melee. The tougher enemies, the ones you would actually want to use this talent on because they're solos? i'd have to say 90% or more of them have the SAME armor all the way around. Whats the point? Disarm, spend a full action to make someone drop something. If you beat them at an opposed weapon skill check. Not undoable at all, but if i'm spending a full action, i think most people would rather attack them 2 or (probably) more times and try to kill them instead. by that rank one could conceivably have 4 attacks total, with just a few talents. And, finally, i just have a problem with Crippling Strike because 9 times out of 10 the GM doesn't worry about critical damage for enemies, and if he does, then more than likely they're already dead from critical damage anyway. It's too specific in its extra damage capacity, not to mention you get it at far too late a rank to have actually not learned to get along without it.

The ones i feel are at odd ranks are (the most glaring offender,) Combat Master at rank 8. Yes, it has master in the title, but lets look at what it does, it negates your enemies bonuses from ganging up on you. You're telling me a guy who makes a career out of getting up close and personal with bad things doesn't know how to fight more than one at a time effectively? Really? Another odd ranking is both Counter-attack at rank 4, and Blademaster at rank 6. This one actually really baffles me. You know how to riposte after a parry, before you can just reroll once? Very strange.

So these are my musings. Perhaps i'm simply frustrated at the lack of a clear damage dealing role for my chosen class, Devastators and even Tactical Marines are better at dealing with hordes. I was starting to think they're more of an elite hunter, but it would be really tough for an assault marine to go toe to toe with some of them one on one for even a round, so I'm kind of at a loss.

Anyway, i'm sorry it was so long, and I look forward to any input or opinions you guys can offer me. Thanks.

Hi!

First off, I'm playing an assault marine too, and I can totally understand your criticism. Most of the odd things in the advancement table mentioned by you seem odd to me as well.

Regarding Thunder Charge, Battle Rage, Frenzy: Well, I have to say that in my opinion it's ok to have certain chapters get talents others don't get. I mean every system has races (or watever they choose to call them) that favour a certain kind of specialization. Perhaps most common are elven mages or archers in fantasy RPGs. That is basically similar to Storm Wardens and Blood Angels getting their special talents in DW.

Regarding the other talents you mentioned. Yes, I agree, some of them are not very useful in standard combat (not useful at all to be exact). Look at them as "special situation" talents. Maybe in one adventure your kill-team has to arrest or capture a powerful xenos or heretic without killing him? Or you fight an adversary who is packed in thick armour, but has no helmet? I know, these occasions will be very rare, but when they occur, the talents mentioned will be very useful.

Concerning "devastators and tacticals are somewhat superior": From my personal experience, I can say that it's not as bad as one might think at the beginning. When I started playing my AM, I was constantly whining about how inferior melee is compared to ranged combat. But after we had our first couple of fights, and I learned how to utilize squad mode abilities, my AM kicked ass big time. We do not have a devastator in our group, but all the other specializations are there, and I can tell you none of them kills as fast and as many enemies as the AM. Of course, it is highly dependant on the situation. On a wide plane, ranged specialists will always have the advantage. But from my experience, most combat situations will be at medium or close range, with the kill-team fighting through tunnels, forests, swamps, narrow streets, corridors, etc. There you AM can shine.

YoritomoKatsage said:

Personal anecdote here, that may help you see the other side of the issue...

My group contains a Blood Angels Assault Marine, as I imagine many groups do. He has bought Frenzy and Battle Rage. However, he's since found them to be as much a liability as an advantage, given that it forces him to advance into combat at all times, without any option to do anything else until the combat ends. This, amongst other things, can pull him out of Squad Mode, hurl him into enemies that may be too tough or too skilled to deal with (or at least deal with quickly) and makes the character essentially uncontrollable, which is a massive hindrance in missions where the objective isn't "kill everything that moves". The point at which this dawned on him was when he was hurled into melee with a Carnifex during a situation where the group were waiting for a shuttle to extract them from the warzone... he had no choice but to fight the Carnifex, and didn't have the option to disengage in order to actually reach the shuttle when it arrived, forcing it to wait while more and more enemies poured in.

Frenzy makes you deadlier in a fight, yes... but it also hinders the group tactically and strategically. Smart, mobile enemies like Tau and Eldar can (and should) use a character's frenzied state to draw him away from his squad-mates into ambushes, while Tyranids and Orks can easily overwhelm a frenzied character with vast numbers of troops that he's forced to fight. Frenzy is a very situational talent, one where the advantages and disadvantages should be carefully considered in any given context...

And once again we see how the idea of being a munchkin can bite you in the ass. Though personally, my advice would have been to "suck it up and deal with it", as I don't see a minor restriction like that really being something that causes your character to be so much weaker.

And it's hardly personal flavour, it's just that the Blood Angels are the kind of Chapter to have a temperment that includes frenzying in close combat. A Chapter like the Iron Hands or Ultramarines wouldn't, which is why Frenzy and Battle Rage are found in the Chapter table, instead of the one for Assault Marines.

As for why you'd want to disarm, or stun, or whatever, an enemy. Well stop thinking like a little munchkin twink for a second, and you'll see uses for them. Maybe one of the other members of your Kill-Team is getting beaten on you could make the enemy drop their weapon, or stun them for a moment, so they don't end up beating them to death. And so on.

YoritomoKatsage said:

When I run my game the cost of Elite advances are based on the advance itself and how much it makes sense for the character. I don't have a blanket price for the advances.

YoritomoKatsage said:

Out of curiosity, why? While they use flame weapons sometimes, it doesn't, to me at least, feel like their specialty.

Okay, as for Sure Strike: as Arkhan says, you'll want it when that CSM Champion is going helmetless, or you fight a mighty tyranid or daemon that has only one spot that's vulnerable.

Takedown: Yeah, in DH I used it to great effect, but in DW it's a little....underwhelming due to all of the uber toughnesses. Might be worth considering discussing a house rule.

Disarm: You've got to pick between offense and defense, and depending on the weapon the bad guy is carrying forcing him to drop it for a turn can be what saves your life. As others have said, it also helps if you're looking for ways to NOT kill someone.

Crippling Strike: Against Hordes, maybe. And perhaps YOUR GM doesn't worry about crits from elites or masters, but my GMs do, and I personally do for the bigger enemies.

Counter Attack/Blademaster: The rules benefits need to be a big factor in determining when you get a skill/talent, not quite as much what would be 'realistic.'

Combat Master: Again, rules benefits. For many of the 'multiple' enemies you face will be hordes and don't get the ganging up bonus to begin with. Saying you're not effective at fighting multiple opponents is also a misnomer here, as the AM is quite effective at hand to hand combat.

As others have said, give it some time, wiat until you've picked up a weapon better than a chainsword and gained some talents, and I think you'll find that the AM can do some pretty amazing work. The issue at lower levels is that boltgun does amazing damage.

OK, with all this being said, I'll bring it back to a point I'm still having trouble with. What are the assault marines actually supposed to be "the best" at? Devastators kill hordes. Tech Marines cover the tech side. Apothecaries heal/retrieve progenoids. Psykers use psychic powers, and are **** good melee as well. Tactical marines are the all around guys (and typically, though not always, the best leaders.)

Yes, Assault Marines do melee combat. I know this. But what enemies are they supposed to focus on? I get bogged down rather quickly with hordes, now granted they can't move forward while i'm there, but the idea of being a roadblock/speedbump doesn't really appeal to me. Am i supposed to be rushing over to kill the elites or leaders or what?

Hm basically you said what AMs do. They do melee. Their role is (in my experience) to prevent the enemy from engaging the ranged specialists in melee combat (so yes, they are are kind of "roadblock"). But don't look at this as a trivial task. Without the AM, a kill-team fighting melee-specialised opponents (like tyranids) could be destroyed pretty fast. But also when fighting ranged specialists like tau, it's the AMs task to engage the most potent foe in close combat in order to prevent him from firing his deadly weapons. This is a highly dangerous and honourable job that shouldn't be underestimated.

Now regarding the "underpoweredness". In my group (we are currently rank 2), there is noone who can deal nearly as much damage to enemies as the AM (we do not have a devastator). That is to hordes as well as to boss monsters. The AM wields a power sword and a power axe, causing over 1d10+25 pen 6 damage with either one of them, and he has 4 attacks per round. His base WS is 70 and he gets a shitload of bonuses, raising this characteristic near or even well above 100 (depending on the enemy). Boss enemies (excluding the really big ones like Hive Tyrants) do not last for more than one round against him. And hordes are decimated easily because of his wrathful descent and the fact that 2 degrees of succes equal 1 additional hit. So killing around 20 magnitude of a horde in one round is nothing rare.

So in my experience, you don't have to focus on one kind of enemy. AMs are deadly no matter what foe they fight. They are always where the fighting is thickest, protecting their brethren from harm by slaying huge amounts of adversaries with their mighty blades.

Always remember that a kill-team only functions when everybody works together. You stop'em by going close, your brothers pop'em from afar.

I'm not saying they're underpowered. I'm saying some of the talents are pointless. It could just be the campaign i'm currently in, all we're fighting at the moment is 'nids. In that situation, sure strike, precise blow, and disarm are completely useless. 'nid armor is the same all the way around, and with natural weapons, there's nothing to disarm. Now yes, while eventually I'm sure we'll be fighting something else, looking towards the next few months with basically null-choices on my advancement table is rather un-palatable.

Think part of the problem is that multiple hits in melee are so powerful, you rarely want to use any of the other options. So i can use a half action to feint and if i win the contest he can't parry my next attack OR i can hit him 3/4 times with him only been able to defend against the first one (for most enemies anyway)! er let me see...

But on the other hand the multiple attacks is the main advantage melee characters have over ranged, especially autofire. Very agile opponents are able to dodge some or all of the large number of hits of a single ranged attack, especially if they have unnatural agility, but that does not help with the multiple close combat attacks.

This was highlighted in reverse in final sanction when the GM, stated the genestealers from Dark Heresy, in close combat from ambush (what GS's do) they were lethal against marines if they got to do lightening attack, even if you dodged the first attack, the next 2 probably hit and often get the extra pen, which can cripple a marine in two hits. Daft thing is an assension level character with the marines would probably have at least one if not both of the extra reactions (dodge and parry), giving him more of a fighting chance. Why should an equivalent level guardsman (for example) have 2 or 3 defensive reactions, while a marine only has one, think assault marines get the extra's at 4th and 6th rank, imagine the others are similar and probably in most cases even later! Other than assault marines, the marines would be only on one melee attack, but the assension level character would likely have more! Marines should be level 8 (i think that is the equivalent to DH) and have access to earlier talents, not start at level 1 and have to wait to get them. Same goes for Rogue Trader characters starting at rank 4/5.

Yes: There are some things on the list that you will not want to buy. Just as there are things on every skill list that the 'user' will not want to buy. It's similar to the local shop having things on the shelf that I do not like. It's why you get more options that you have XP to spend on: To give you a choice. If you don't want disarm, you can exercise your choice not to buy it. That does not mean that there is an issue, or that the option should be replaced with something 'better' from a player's perspective. There are still more things to buy than you have XP for, so invest in more WS/S/T/whatever.

I'm not quite sure what you'd want instead, in many ways. Five attacks per round? Encroachment on other classes niche areas?

It's worth noting that Tacticals are NOT all-rounders. Take a look at the skill list, and they get about two melee talents. Take a look at other class lists too, and you'll notice that from any individual perspective they all get a fair bit of chaff. But one man's poison is another's meat. Someone may want to be able to use minimum force to subdue and capture a foe, instead of killing it.

AMs are good at...melee. Yes: You are a speed bump whose job it is to keep those less capable at melee alive when the party are charged by genestealers, just as it's the Dev's job to try to blow away nasty melee foes before they pull your head off. You are a survivable character with great defensive reactions. You're also a quick-reaction strike element thanks to that jump pack. You can also find your niche as party point-man, as if you get jumped you are best equipped to keep yourself alive for a round or two. And you are the best darn melee character class there is.

The only one in your list which also bothers me as an Assault Marine is Thunder Charge. That seems to me like something all Assault Marines should get, albeit at a fairly high Rank.

It just seems silly to me to have put a brand-new, really cool, melee-centric talent like that in the game and then not give it to the really cool, melee-centric specialization.

Instead it's given to a new Chapter in order to give them something unique and defining. Which is fair enough.

Oh, I wouldn't say it bothers me unduly, just was kind of surprising when I looked through my advancement tables and found that I never got it. I can always just ask my GM for an Elite Advance if I think it makes a good deal of sense.

YoritomoKatsage said:

Yeah, some of the enemies you face will really determine what types of skills are worth purchasing, as will the way a GM runs a game (does he even have the CSMs go helmetless or is that not 'realistic' enough? Does he actually use the crit table?). If you get in a spot where most of the choices are kind of meh for your campaign, start pumping that XP into characteristics in order to get you to the next rank. It only goes so far, but it can help when you reach a dry spot. Or look at the other three tables to pick some skills.

As for what AM's do, something I've seen them be quite good at is precision strikers- they can engage and waylay a horde that's trying to close in on a flank (and they can do some considerable damage to the horde, especially at higher ranks), they can zoom in and engage heavy weapons that could otherwise one shot a fellow battle brother (MP Lascannon has the capacity to take out a character in a single hit on a marginally decent roll), they can move behind the enemy quickly in order to confuse and confound their organization, etc. My group's AM is rarely without his jump pack mind you, but the ability to move and engage at speed really gives him his own spot on the team. They can fight both elites and hordes, though at lower ranks hand to hand with certain master is a...questionable proposition.

Cleanse and Purify seem more like something you would see an Sister of Battle Serephim with, though some chapters might favor this type of approach. Maybe create a new chapter who have access to this in their chapter progression.

Another way of solving it that you might bring up with your GM, or your players if you are the GM, is to allow for some degree of cross-training within the unit. It is realistic that small teams do this, and can make for a more solid team. How I implemented it in my games is to allow another player to purchess a talent or skill from a fellow battlebrother at twice the exp cost and at one rank higher then the trainer recieved it. This exspense and limitation makes this a rare event, but still an option if a player wants to shape their character a certain way.

Blood Pact said:

If ever, in all of gaming, there is a time to put aside all thoughts of modesty and unleash your inner munchkin it is when playing a Space Marine.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Assault Marines are hideous. The assault marine in one game killed 4 genestealers (ok, weakened ones from the intro mission, but still nasty) on his own. In another game I am in the assault marine deals nearly as much damage to Hordes as the Devastator (it does tend to be more swingy though... depends on how many attacks hit and how well) and tears through anything that isn't running around with Unnatural toughness x3 or wearing power armour, and doesn't do too badly against those guys. He can tie things down (even in the first game where he frenzied and died twice he acted as a roadblock against the hordes or orks we were facing). Only the devastator can vie in the amount of damage he does (and eventually will outstrip the Assault Marine against hordes).

The only thing I would say he can't really deal with was vehicles.

Multiple attacks are hideous. The rest of us in melee have one attack. This means to penetrate parries effectively we have to gang up (and not keep rolling 90+ like I did yesterday), but the Assault marine can do it all on his own. We have a librarian who can do hideous amounts of attack in melee (hideous strength combined with using a force weapon). However, he has one attack. He attacks... he often misses. If he hits it is often parried. Give him another attack and he would become so much more powerful, but he doesn't have it yet.

As far as chaff goes: look at Apothecary rank 3. Medicae +20 is the only essential purchase (and isn't even interesting), and the rest are very situational skills. Dullest rank eva!