I agree here with Laughing Storm. I think Targ had a rough time against a fast Bara deck...at best it probably won 50-50 (assuming equal level of players, etc.). With Targ box, one might think Targ's chances have improved. On the other hand, Heir doesn't give Targ as long to stabilize. If Bara is running their Fury plot and Heir (and I agree with others that this is probably better than running TLS as the restricted card), I expect Targ to lose most of the time against a Bara rush deck (again, assuming equal level of players, etc.).

Considering everything, I think Targ probably can build a deck type that beats Bara 70% of the time, but that deck/build probably loses 90% of the time to a decent Martell match up. So like with teching against any particular build, the Targ player gives up a lot. A Targ build that is a bit more balanced will probably still lose 50% of the time to Bara and 60+% of the time to Summer Martell. In the end, maybe Targ's success is just going to come down to how well the player anticipates the metagame composition?

3 Westeros Bleeds
Valar
Wildfire
Loyalty Money Can Buy

That should slow down the early game a fair bit

The 1 - 2 players that play Targ at Black Friday and NYC usually place in the top cut.

Occasionaly a bara deck makes it that far.

In fact has Baratheon ever won worlds? I recall one that was a treaty with Martell but I'm not certain which house it was officially.

Generally Targ and Lannister win worlds.

I think Greyjoy has also won once? And Stark has never won.

Am I correct?

I think a bunch of people are going to play Targ due to the box, and then a bunch of people reading the boards will think "Lets tech against Targ using Bara?" and they'll play bara and unless your Staton you probably won't do that well for it. Then some smarter people will play Stark since Stark kills Dragons dead. And of course the real crafty ones will bring in a house nobody has said anything about... Lannister and really do well.

And of course Greyjoy will actually win regionals.

bloodycelt said:

Its quite a bit different out here in California where a Bara deck dominated last year's Regionals and no Targ build has placed as high as Bara since the CCG era.

Targ also hasn't won Worlds (or any major tournament out West) since the CCG era when they had a different set of staples compared to the LCG era (Blood Magic is still my favorite burn card of all time).

I've always seen targ as having a lot of power, but the issue is more about the skill needed as a player. You forget to bring back forever burning, or miss an option to bring dragon skull out of shadows, and things fall apart fast. When your playing at a high level that room for error is even smaller, especially with a deck that is not forgiving. Lets face it, when your running aggro its pretty vanilla. Play characters. Win challenges. The same way a very good player can pick up my nuts and bolts stark deck and take down a better deck because of understanding and player skill.

As I have said, I have no major tournaments under my belt, but this is the reason I attribute to such little targ presence at a high level. I do expect that with the new box and support from recent cycles, and the heavy attachment nature of the maesters, we will see more of the House. To me its because it is making the house more User Friendly, and at the same time making those already existing strategies smoother in execution. Thus, I predict a field with lots of people playing targ and performing mediocre, with a small number playing targ and really using their mechanics to great success.

Mathias Fricot said:

Well said, I had the same impressions from wating my girlfriend play targ over the last 6 months. I started a small group of Thrones players and after having taught 6 people how to play the game I realised that none of them picked Targ after having me describe it/watching me play with it. I think its because it requires such precises execution to match other decks (especially when playing out of the core set and/or limited pool of cards) that its just too tough or intimidating for most players.

That said the box should really pick things up for them, from what weve seen a savy player could definately throw out some serious combos and tricks.

Mathias Fricot said:

thats a solid base. Heres another option if you don't want to go so reset heavy.

fear of winter and Loyalty money can buy turns 1 and 2 (any order you want)

burning bridges turn 3

wildfire turn 4 (especially if you have Jhogo out [you know a 3 cost character that actually draws cards all by his lonesome])

id say targ should love that plot combo no matter the deck and no matter the opponent. It leaves you room to add in two more deck specific plots and rivals the plot deck of a lanni cities plot. heck if you wanted shadows you could go with two city plots or if you want search you could use new maester city and one of the other city control plots.

bara's go no answer for that.

Lars said:

Burning Bridges might be a little better in Targ, but I think it's still lower impact than a typical 2-claim plot. It also means you can't trigger those amazing Targ locations, which the house tends to rely on more than most other houses.

On the 3x bleeds, I'm also not a big fan there...would rather just play Hatchling Feast (and I don't think it's easy to play both). Maybe you guys are just coming up with different Targ builds than I do though. Let me ask you this: How successful are the Targ decks you're running? Is all this extra control really helping you win more often...or is this basically just theory based on a few anecdotal cases of someone winning with a game-changing Bleeds and/or Burning Bridges?

Q: How is Skeletonator like a vineyard?

A: His efforts have produced gallons on vinatge whine!

Theory mostly. I ran Westeros Bleeds out of Stark for a while, and it really caught people off guard. when you drop a late game Bleeds not only do people not expect it, but it drastically changes the board. Plus, if you have any recursion at all your definitely better off than your opponent post sweep. Considering Targ has similar potential in the recovery aspect, I don't see why it shouldn't work.

That wasn't specifically against Bara rush, where any wrath effect is going to have a greater effect. The big deal about Bara rush is that they build up power very quickly on renown characters. Anything that kills characters also gets rid of their power, and once the surge is passed and their momentum lost the game can really screech to a halt because Bara has such a very poor draw engine in-House. So, you knock out 9 power off of characters and wipe the board, your in a better relative position than before. Sure, they may Narrow Escape - but then they are not playing Val so you know that when you do sweep successfully (see below), their recovery is going to be much slower than yours. At the same time, if they don't NE you've hit a reset, which is great, they might have greater potential to come back with the 5 card pump... but thats why Dragon Skull is around. I think for a Targ vs Bara Rush you need to take advantage of two things: 1a) get rid of their draw engine, which is Val (or 1b get rid of KotS Stannis which is stopping everyone from drawing so that you can use King's Landing) to give you card advantage. In a long game, it makes a big difference. 2a) sweep. It sounds lame, but when I make a list for a targ control deck its got KotHH, Valar, Wildfire, 3x Westeros Bleeds, 3x The Hatchling Feast, 3x Dragonpit, the Skulls, the Chambers, the Wine. Yes, its a lot of dedicated character hate, but you need a consistent level of mass removal to deal with rush, whether its out of Bara or Stark or any house. Once you establish the machine, just keep it going. They can't win challenges against you without characters, and you will eventually get the attachment hate/location hate thats required for breaking their lock if they have one. Otherwise, power through.

Stag Lord said:

~'cause Stag Lord NEVER whines about cards or strengths of houses...NEVER!!!! C'mon Stag, your being a Bara homer is getting too obvious

Anyways, back on subject (~thanks Mathlete for ruining another thread!).

Wow...just wow. Some CRAZY cards in there. I have almost no issues with any of the cards (I dislike the basic theories Muster and a 4/3/1 Loyalty - let's make challenges less important!!!, but whatever), and a lot of them fill holes that just need filling (ug, that sounded bad...).

Dissension is a natural counter to what has always been a negative trait (heck, look at Fat Free being printed at the same time) for all houses.

Paper Shield is a natural 1 vs. 1 counter, that gives influence based events a little more umph, and takes down the free events just a tad (Forever Burning and the reinforcement combos come to mind, maybe kneeling and Confession).

Initiate is a good balanced non-perm, non-Targ counter to attachments. I don't mind Targ having the lion's share of these, but having one house the only house to control one of the types of cards probably isn't great.

Add to that a TON of powerful, fun cards. Off the top of my head Fat Free, Sun Stroke, New Grey Worm, the Dragons, the Dragon locations, Horseback Archers, BL Warlock, some cool locations...a lot to digest for sure! IMHO the most powerful expansion I have seen.

Sidenote: I like the mass location destruction card (Favorable Ground). Locations should be just as breakable as characters.

Other than the plot selection, and maybe the Army-centric stuff laid on a bit thick, pretty nice!!!

""Initiate is a good balanced non-perm, non-Targ counter to attachments. I don't mind Targ having the lion's share of these, but having one house the only house to control one of the types of cards probably isn't great."""

i hate initiate, not the idea of it but the fact that to trigger it you don't have to do anything, just have this character out during dominance and you can discard all the attachments from one guy? At the very least make the player earn that ability by winning a challenge of some kind, to have that as a neutral card floating around makes it pointless to play any of the higher priced attachments. and makes any attachment over 1 gold not really worth it

Except he returns them to hand, he doesn't discard them. And a 1 STR character should not be too difficult to get rid of if you are depending on attachments. And of course you'll still get a use out of those attachments since his effect works in Dominance.

Another intersting thing is you could use him to move around your own attachment control when better characters come out. Toss out a milk on someone who is a pain and when the Viper hits the table bring back to hand and milk him the following marshalling phase.

Options. I like it.

Penfold said:

Yeah, it is a temporary fix on a VERY easily controlled character who actaully costs more than his strength. Plus he has to get all the way to domination to even trigger once. I don't think he will scare away any any of the good 2-cost attachments - the new Targ box making Targ more prevelant might...as might the # of good Maesters to use their pretty strong attachment control event, but I don't think he will that much.

I am assuming you can do him with Writ Small and...oh, the Martell one as well? I would use him on mine for sure.

maybe its the "any number" of attachments that bothers me, if it was just one i probably wouldnt have a problem, but meh there will always be cards that irk people and im more than happy with the Targ box and what it adds so ill learn to deal with it. . .. . . . even though i think its a trash card ^^

I think its supposed to be a counter to the voltron decks.

Well, I guess it is. A fragile and limited counter, but it has some general utility also. I like it.

jack merridew said:

I was really hoping for a reprint of Weapons at the Door or it's equivalent. Initiate is more thematic with the Maester block and makes attachments a little more playable.

Twn2dn said:

rings said:

Oh wow... hadn't thought of that. But all of a sudden it's New Favourite Card O'clock.

Like I said, his versatility is pretty nice.

I only thought of it due to the combo of Writ Small with an old Lanni attachment back in the CCG days (it was 0 cost, +2 strength, and if you won a challenge you could return an attachment to owner's hand - VERY handy vs. the 4-cost Bara stealing attachment).

HAs anyone actually laid their hands on a set yet?

Penfold said:

Sweet, I'm grabbing one during my lunch then. See how long it takes me to build a deck. Dragons, Armies, or Dothraki first? Hm... maybe it is time to try my hand at a burn deck again...