LEGA said:

Threat level cannot be less then 0 according the rules. So same is here. Cannot be up then 50 i suppose.

LEGA said:

Hi LEGA,

some of your question have been answered already, I'll try to anser the rest of them.

1.) Yes, they're not reshuffled. If they would be reshuffled, the rulebook would instruct you to take note of your victory points per pencil or something like that.

2.) Good question. Never thought of it before though, it seemed to be clear. I think the "defending player" is the player with whom the enemy is engaged. (The player which would be usually defending.) The rulebook only speaks about the "active player" on p. 18, so this is more a guess than a doubt-free statement, but I think in FAQ rule 1.04 the term "defending player" is used in the same sense as I said. And after all, the sentinel is just filling a place which should be filled by a character of the active player, so why should the "defending player" now change.

4.) Due to the Golden Rule, the usual "discard enemy when too much damage tokens are on it" rule doesn't apply, but the wording of the card does. So it should be placed on top of the encounter deck after combat, in my opinion.

5.) Right. Since the only restriction is that the target character has to be committed, also committed characters of other players can be chosen.

6.) Since the effect of "Driven by Shadow" isn't restricted on attachments you control, I'd say FAQ rule 1.06 doesn't change anything, and encounter attachments are also valid targets.

7.) Very good question. The correct answer depends on how duplicate cards are managed (are they regarded as the same card, but as another instance of the card? Or are copies regarded as different cards?) and what exactly the term "other" means (other cards or other instances?). Since I can't find anything about this in the rules, I'd just use common sense and because they're both titled with the same "Goblin Sniper" text, I'd guess that you can engange them.

Regards,

Pete

HilariousPete said:

I do not believe you have to apply the Golden Rule here. The wording on the card does not contradict the usual rules for killing an enemy, only what happens at the end of combat. If you kill the wolves they would be placed in the discard pile as usual. When combat ends the attempt to return the wolves to the top of the discard pile fails because they have been removed from play already by a different rule.

Svenn said:

You mean, because of the "don't apply Golden rule if there is no direct contradiction"? Right, that's a point, the Golden Rule's not applicable here ;-)

But still, the shadow effect reads "after combat, return Wolf Rider to the top of encounter deck." And I'd say even when Wolf Rider's in the discard pile, you resolve the original shadow effect.

HilariousPete said:

The card is in the discard pile. It is already out of play. Effects cannot interact with a card out of play unless specified otherwise.

Also, check out this FAQ entry.

"(1.02) Simultaneous Effect Timing
If two or more conflicting effects would occur simultaneously, the first player decides the order in which the effects resolve.

Example: Tom plays Sneak Attack (CORE 23) to put Beorn (CORE 31) into play during the combat phase. Sneak Effect has the condition, “At the end of the phase, if that ally is still in play, return it to your hand.” During combat, Tom uses Beorn’s triggered effect, which has the condition, “At the end of the phase in which you trigger this effect, shuffle Beorn back into your deck.” At the end of the phase, a situation arises in which two conflicting effects are attempting to resolve simultaneously on Beorn. The first player determines which of the two effects resolves first. (The second effect no longer applies when Beorn leaves play.)"

Notice how the second effect on Beorn no longer applies because Beorn is out of play? This is a similar situation, except Beorn is leaving play earlier.

You'll end up with a similar situation if you play Gandalf with Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack says to return Gandalf to your hand at the end of the phase and Gandalf's card says to discard him at the end of the round. After he returns to your hand from Sneak Attack, however, the discard effect can no longer apply because he is already out of play. You do not then discard Gandalf from your hand at the end of the round.

You've got a point in the "no interactions from an out of play state" and the leaving-Beorn example. But there are examples when some card effects are still valid while the card is not in play, how can these be explained?

One of these examples is Sneak attack. The sequence is: play the card -> resolve its text (bring Gandalf into play) -> discard the event (rules p. 9). But still at the end of the round, Gandalf is put into a player's hand, because the action of Sneak Attack has already been triggered, even when Sneak Attack itself is in the discard pile.
A similar example is For Gondor, you play the event, then you resolve its text (establishing a new lasting effect which gives the characters +1 attack), then it is discarded. But this lasting effect is valid until the end of the current phase.

Or take Eleanor. Suppose Surge is on the treachery card eleanor is used to cancel. Before the Surge resolves, the when revealed has to resolve (rules p. 24). But we have to use Eleanor's response even before the when revealed effect (otherwise, it wouldn't be of any use). So the first thing to resolve is Eleanor's text. And it states that the original treachery card is discarded. After that, (but before resolving possible When Revealed effects on the new card, according to the new FAQ on page 7) Surge of the old card is executed. But at this point, the original treachery card is already discarded...

HilariousPete said:

Your examples all have one thing in common... the target of the effect has not left play. When playing Sneak Attack or For Gondor the original card that initiated the effect leaves play, but the effect of the cards is on a card that is already in play. Sneak attack specifies that the card played is returned to the owner's hand at the end of the phase. This effect targets the card being played, it does not target Sneak Attack. If you played an ally with Sneak Attack and it died it would go to the discard pile, then when Sneak Attack was supposed to return it to your hand it would fail because the target of the effect is out of play.

Even in the case of Eleanor (which was errata'ed) the target of Surge or Doomed is not the Treachery card that was discarded.

There is a very important difference between the card initiating the effect and the target of an effect. If the target of an effect is not in play then it is not a valid target.

Rulebook about "out of play":
"Card effects do not interact with cards in an out of play state unless the effect specifically refers to that state."

Svenn said:

But when the Wolf Rider is flipped, and the shadow effect is resolved, it targets itself, and since it is in play, it also targets a card that is in play. At least, it's in play at the time its shadow effect gets resolved, and the lasting effect initiated. EDIT: and in the Eleanor example (see below), the target has left play

Svenn said:

I agree that such an ally isn't returned to my hand, but this is because of the "if the ally is still in play" text on Sneak attack. At the end of the round, neither Sneak Attack nor the ally are in play, but still FFG put the if clause on the card for this case, and this clause is preventing a destroyed character from being taken back into hand in ym opinion, and not the fact that the ally is out of play.

Svenn said:

Yes, there is a difference between a card and its target... But in Eleanors case, the original target of eleanor's ability (the cancelled treachery card with the Surge keyword) is also in an out of play state when its Surge is applied.

Or did you mean that this has been changed by the erratum? But I think not, the erratum only deals with the new treachery card, that it's revealed and not only replaced, but doesn't say anything about the old Surge...

Or, if I misunderstood you and you wanted to say that Surge or Doomed don't target the Treachery card... yes, but this is the case everytime a Surge occurs...

Yes, Wolf Riders is in play when the effect is initiated but when the resolution of the effect occurs the card is already out of play. The effect cannot resolve because the target of the effect is no longer in play.

Surge and Doomed do not target the treachery card. The treachery card initiates Surge, Doomed, and the When Revealed simultaneously. The effect can still resolve because none of these are targeting the discarded treachery card.

This is exactly the same as the Beorn example. I urge you to re-read that. It says "(The second effect no longer applies when Beorn leaves play.)" If the "if that ally is still in play" part of Sneak Attack was so important this would not be the case. If you triggered the Sneak Attack effect first then the remaining effect is “At the end of the phase in which you trigger this effect, shuffle Beorn back into your deck.” This does not specify "if that ally is still in play" but the example specifies that it still does not trigger because Beorn has left play, so it is not purely a Sneak Attack wording thing.

Svenn said:

Svenn said:

Svenn said:

LEGA said:

If a card uses its name in its text, then it is referring ONLY to that copy of itself, not any other copies with the same name. If you have 2 Goblin Snipers in the staging area, then each one prevents the other one from being engaged. You'll need Dunhere, Gandalf, or some other way of getting one out of the staging area to deal with them.

HilariousPete said:

HilariousPete said:

Exactly. It would still function without that part of the card, but is a good reminder.

radiskull said:

The rules don't explicity say this, although it is a good principle (otherwise you'd be able to get 9 progress tokens on all locations with 3 northern trackers in play; that's absurd). Rather than go in to that, however, let's look at the text on Goblin Sniper:

"During the encounter phase, players cannot optionally engage Goblin Sniper if there are other enemies in the staging area."

You cannot engage this enemy if there are other enemies in the staging area. There is another enemy in the staging area. The fact that it's another Goblin Sniper is irrelevant.

Thank you all for answers.

My apologies since this was its own thread a page back, and I don't think there's any clear answer, but...

Q: How does the Forced effect of quest phase 2B work if Gollum isn't in play?

I think it needs a little bit of errata, but I've been playing it as though if you defeat phase 2B without Gollum in play, you have to reset the quest deck to 1B. Still, I think there are just way too many possible ways to interpret this (i.e., Gollum has no resource tokens on him since he is in the encounter deck, and is therefore "captured" without having to deal any cards and the scenario won).

As an aside, I also think that Gollum should have errata that reads: "If Gollum is revealed as a shadow card or during an Escape test, put him into the staging area instead and replace him with the next card from the top of the encounter deck." Having him shuffled back in only to slowly trawl through the encounter deck to make sure you don't accidentally discard him (i.e., cancelling all treacheries, avoiding combats), is awfully tedious. He ended up being the very bottom encounter card in a two-player game today

I've got a question related to the Dead Marshes.

If the Encounter Deck is empty, are no cards drawn for Escape Checks? By the rules no, but this can absolutely ruin the Capture of Gollum and make the whole quest no fun at all...so I feel that either the rule about not refreshing the encounter deck, or something in the Dead Marshes needs to be FAQed.

Escape checks happen during Quest Phase, IIRC, in which case you'd reshuffle the encounter discard pile as soon as the draw pile was empty.

Not necessarily. Say Legolas kills an enemy (combat phase) places 2 progress tokens on quest card 2B to complete that card....and I feel like especially the "capture" should actually involved dealing cards...

conykchameleon said:

Legolas's ability is optional

Better choose a differente example...

Why? With a reading of all of the rules we have available, you would WANT to complete the quest, as it means you would only have to commit 1 Willpower to the capture check, as no cards would be dealt.

That's exactly right - in those specific circumstances, you could get away with doing a rather trivial escape check.

Doesn't anyone think that needs an errata? And furthermore, can anyone explain to me why the 'don't refresh the encounter deck outside of the quest phase' rule is there, other than to make Eastern Crows work?

A question that has probably been asked before, but I couldn't find it:

1) I trigger Faramir's action at the start of the quest phase.

2) Faramir gets killed by a "when revealed" effect of an encounter card.

Do the questing characters still get one additional WP or is Faramir's action lost after his departure?

Faramir's bonus to your characters remains until the end of the phase.