Svenn said:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, I just wasn't sure. Basically, you could have an endless cycle of Galadrim's Greeting/Will of the West and just continue to lower your threat infinitely if you could go negative.

Svenn said:

Svenn said:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too, I just wasn't sure. Basically, you could have an endless cycle of Galadrim's Greeting/Will of the West and just continue to lower your threat infinitely if you could go negative.

Svenn said:

I disagree with this Svenn.

Quick strike gives you an extra "Declare" any character around the table that is able to (your own or others with Ranged Keyword) is free to join in that Attack. The mention of Exhausting One character is just a cost to pay to be able to declare it as an attacker, and specifies that you cannot use this card to declare an already exhausted character as attacker.

See FAQ... I think this is even a specific Example in there.

Example: Tom exhausts Aragorn to attack a Hill Troll, and Kris exhausts Legolas to participate in the attack. The Hill Troll takes 3 wounds but survives. All characters in play are then readied via Grim Resolve (CORE 25). Because the Hill Troll has already been attacked by Tom, he cannot declare another attack against it this round except through a card effect. So if Tom exhausts Aragorn to play Quick Strike (CORE 35) which reads, "Action: Exhaust a character you control to immediately declare it as an attacker..." both Aragorn and Legolas could attack the Hill Troll again.

To Repeat the important part; Using Quick Strike, both Aragorn and Legolas could attack the Hill Troll again.

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

Keep in mind, in the example Tom plays Quick Strike to use Aragorn and Kris used Legolas' ranged powers to participate. If Tom had both Aragorn and Legolas he would have to settle for only using one of them with his Quick Strike.

I completely disagree with that.

Simple really.

It's an Attack. Anyone that can legally Join the Attack is allowed to do so, my own characters or others (if they have Ranged keyword). Anything else would have to be explicitly excluded by the card text. And it's not. IMO.

Maybe a new FAQ clarification around this is needed, cause if I'm wrong here (could be of course) I have to say I'm completely blind sided by this.

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

Anyone can legally join an attack that is allowed to do so BUT when playing quickstrike, no other characters are legally allowed to join except the character on which quickstrike has been played, except ranged attackers controlled by other players because the rules state "Ranged attackers can participate in attacks declared by other players" - this rule is not connected to any specific phase of the game, and hence applies at all times.

Are you saying that when you currently play quickstrike on a character, you allow any other character that is ready and can attack the enemy to also join in the attack? I don't think that is the intention of quick strike at all.

pumpkin said:

This is not the intention, and was covered in the answer from Nate. When playing Quickstrike you may only attack with a single character, not multiple characters. The only way to have multiple characters attacking is for another player (who is not engaged with the enemy being attacked) to have characters with the Ranged attribute who can attack. Nate spelled this out pretty clearly.

The rules don't support this either. Quick Strike allows you to immediately exhaust a single character to declare it as an attacker. Unless you are playing this during the attacking portion of your turn (and why would you do that when you can already attack?) then you are unable to declare any other attackers since you are not in the correct phase for attacking. If you were able to attack with any number of characters it would say "Exhaust any number of attackers to declare them as attackers".

Svenn said:

I agree. My question was a specific question to GhostWolf69 and trying to ascertain how s/he plays QuickStrike, as on the face of it, it does seem to contradict what we already know from Nate.

Cheers

pumpkin said:

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying.

*shrugs*

I see how you are doing it, and I re-read the rules, and I agree that you are in the right to interpret it this way... it could be done like that. And if Nate says so I guess it is suppose to be like that. Have to admit though, this is the first "sinking feeling" I've got since I started to play this game.

I don't like it... Cards referring to a generic game element, such as "Declaring an Attack" should explicitly say if this Action should exclude other elements from that. Clearly. If you have to look through several pages of rules to decipher what the card means you're in trouble. ... or in this case... I might be in trouble. I really don't like it... becomes too complex and cumbersome and you soon have to be a lawyer to even run the game... screw that.

First we read this to mean only ONE hero attacking period, then with the FAQ example we all went: Ahhhhh so other characters can join as usual when declaring an attack, now... something like others can join if they have the Ranged Keyword and are not controlled by you... Honestly?

I realise you are probably right guys.. I just don't like it.

*goes off to sulk in a corner contemplating to stop playing this crap before this rules-buggery gets out of hand*

/wolf

pumpkin said:

My Sinking Feeling is this: I shouldn't HAVE to Buddy up with "Nate" to be allowed to play the game, and play it RIGHT.

*grumbles and mumbles some more*

/wolf

I dunno, this doesn't seem that complicated to me. I mean, I only ever read Quick Strike as a single character getting to attack. The only "Aha!" moment I've really had was when I figured out why Ranged attackers could help here, but otherwise this really isn't complicated or difficult to figure out.

Just a quickie, hopefully to conclude this Ranged Quick Strike matter (and not to complicate it any more). I have Legolas and Brand, and an enemy engaged with another player. I Quick Strike that enemy with Legolas, can Brand join in? He is a ranged character controlled by a player not engaged with the attacked enemy.

No, this was answered above. Quick Strike allows YOU to specify a single attacker, not multiple. Ranged keyword only allows you to "join in" on attacks made by other players, not your own. In order for both to attack you need to be able to declare both as attackers, but Quick Strike only allows you to declare a single attacker, not multiple.

I submitted a rules clarification to FFG regarding this scenario, and posted it on the forums. The first part is my question.

Kiwina said:

Svenn said:

Ok, I thought it was the Ranged character cannot be engaged with the attacked enemy, 'cause that to me would make much more sense thematicaly.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Svenn said:

Not wanting to cause anymore angst for GhostWolf69, but that's the way I've always seen QuickStrike too

Svenn said:

So this is slightly different to the conclusion HilariousPete and I came to earlier in the thread.

In our discussion, we finally came to the conclusion that the statement A character can declare ranged attacks against these targets while its owner is declaring attacks meant that if I (the owner) declared Legolas as a ranged attacker using quickstrike against an enemy engaged with another player, other characters that I own could also declare ranged attacks. But that statement is not relevant in this case and only the seoncd statement allowing ranged characters of other players to participate in the attack , is.

I hear you guys. I do. Honest.

To me it's just a matter of Golden Rule application: There's card text and then there's Rules as Written.

So in this particular case we have rules as written for How Characters can participate in Attacks declared. (Ranged or other wise, simply by exhausting if they are under your control and you declare an attack against an engaged enemy.)

And then there's card text... Quick Strike.

The text here is either Over Riding RAW, creating an exeption or it's Not. IT could of course be expressed in more detail if it wants to override part of the ruls and not others, but that would require a more detailed text... something I think is lacking here...

Now if you ask me, I think most of us read this card to mean "Single Character Only" to start with. Right? This we did since it said "Single Character" and "it's attack" etc... not that strange really... and if we apply that then we cannot use Ranged characters, or any other characters either for that matter.

Then the FAQ came along and al of a sudden there was an example in there nullifying my original interpretation... in this example is was bleeding obvious that another character "could join"... granted he had the Ranged keyword but reading the example didn't make you feel like that was the focus of the example, neither was the Quick Strike card actually, but it appeared in a context where Declaring Attacks and Characters attacking out of turn etc was covered.

Ok... so I have to change how we play...

Basically if a player is allowed to declare an attack via Card Text... then normal rules apply. And others can join in, as per normal rules.

Now... this particular situation we have after "Nate" opened up... I don't know guys... I don't see it in the card text. Card Text is still pretty much exclusive and doesn't invite other characters to join in at all IMO. I'm leaning towards going back to my original interpretation because this half-this-half-that-because-some-dude-said-so-nonsense REALLY rubs me the wrong way.

Sorry for taking up your time with this. Move on. There's nothing to see here. Just ignore the grumpy old cantankerous **** in the corner (that is; me ).

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

Here is the simple explanation: Both Quick Strike and Ranged are overriding the default combat rules. Quick Strike overrides the ability to attack only in the attacking portion of the combat phase by allowing you to declare a single attacker. Ranged overrides the default multiple attackers rule by allowing you to join in on any attack made by another player against an enemy with which you are not engaged.

Svenn said:

Yeah, but it also overrides the normal rules that says you can exhaust other characters to join in the attack... unless they are Ranged... and not controlled by you... apparently... although the card doesn't really tell you this, but leaves you guessing or asking "Nate".

We have exhausted this by now. I bow out and will confer with my group on how we should handle this. In the end that is all that matters.

Thank you for playing.

/wolf

GhostWolf69 said:

The normal rules only permit you to declare attackers on your turn during the combat phase.

in my opinion - and I don't want to instigate another discussion about this - only the ONE attacker should be able to attack with quick strike, being that it's a special card... somebody e-mail nate already about this?

There's already an explicit counterexample to that in the FAQ, Vyron.

Kiwina said:

Are you implying that if I use QuickStrike during the Normal Combat phase, just to get a "second go" at the same Enemy, I WOULD be allowed to join other characters to the attack?

No of course you're not. That would be silly. So... in effect, Quick Strike over-rides that rule. Like I said.

/wolf

not sure if this has been raised yet, still reading through responses, but the answer to Q57 seems wrong. The instructions for Guarded on page 24 of the rules clearly say that cards guarding an objective are revealed and attached. Are we certain this is not a problem with the wording on the quest card?