So, looking at the 40k fluff, and the way the table top works, and it quickly becomes apparent that it is not unheard of for Space Marines to fight other Space Marines. It happens for interesting reasons, for sure, but it does seem to happen. (though, less often than say Space Marine vs. Imperial Guard or Adepta Sororitas).

My question is, what would the fallout be if say...the Dark Angels, decided to attack a Watch Station to recover a Dark Angel member of the Deathwatch that had sent a coded transmission back home with information on the Fallen. The Dark Angels have shown numerous times that they will just go all out to get info on the fallen, so I'm not too worried about it being unbelievable that they are attacking (especially when the Deathwatch doesn't respond kindly to being told to surrender).

I'm not planning anything super huge here either, maybe 50-100 Dark Angels, against 20-30 Deathwatch + automated defenses/ground personnel and a couple of visiting Inquisitors. Assuming the DA don't just wipe the base out, grab their folks and go home, what do you see the consequences for this would be?

Delahunt said:

Why would the Dark Angels need to attack a Deathwatch station for this reason? It makes no sense to me. More likely in this situation the Dark Angel DW member would leave and hunt the Fallen using this new information either with his Chapter Brothers or not. Not every member of the Unforgiven knows the full story of the Fallen either, unless they are part of the inner circle or the Ravenwing, etc...

What are you trying to accomplish with a Dark Angel attack on the Deathwatch? An attack like this would not only ruin the Dark Angel rep with the Deathwatch but with all the Chapters that have representatives in the teams or stations the Dark Angels attack. They seem to me to be a bit more subtle than this.

It all depends on your take of the 40k universe, but IMO, if the dark angels didnt wipe everyone out then they would be reported to the inquisition, then the high lords of terra, then excommunicated. I can't see an explicit attack on representatives of the inquisition going over too well with anyone.

On the other hand....if there were no survivors, and a lack of concrete evidence....well, then thats a different story...

There are times in the story when attacks have happened, or the Dark Angels (to keep with the specific example) have done whole sale stupid things in regards to the Fallen and still managed to be ok on some aspects of it.

As for the Dark Angel attack. Numerous reasons. 1) the person in question didn't send a particularly detailed report on things, and isn't looking into the fallen at all. 2) From what I've seen, read, and heard, the Dark Angels aren't exactly the most cool headed when it comes to stuff about the fallen. 3) The person who is going to be taken the initial call, isn't someone who is particularly fond of the DA to be polite.

If this is completely wrong by your view, then by all means, please do explain how you see it going down. From what I have seen though, the DA get violent quick when they think someone is hindering an investigation into the Fallen, and they aren't waiting around on this. Especially when the person who apparently knows things is futzing around (read: doing other missions).

I think ex-communication is a bit far, but I do see major political ramifications coming.

Excom. is what I would expect. You're not fighting brother to brother on the battlefield over a difference in orders or philosopy to uphold honor. You're making a strategic attack against an agency/organization that your chapter has sworn an oath to support and aid, and interfering in the execution of the Inquisitions duties. The Inquisition and the DA already have a strained relationship, this could push it over if you ask me. This would be even worse if you were in the Reach, as the Reach is a 'special place' to the DW and the Inquisition, and messing around with the ability to defend and watch that segment of space would be a bigger offense. At the LEAST, they'd kick out all the DAs out of the DW and never (well, for a long time) invite them back, I would expect it to be a huge stain on their honor. That's a super **** move for the DA DW team member to just kind of sell out his new brothers.

Now on the other hand, if the DA force confronted the DW with an attempt to be diplomatic, landing and demanding an audience, then getting into a heated argument that over how a prisoner was to be dealt with and that negotiation somehow came to blows, I think it would be more...excuseable. Mainly because SMs know that rage and honor can get the best of folks, and 'murder in the heat of passion' is typically more forgivable than a premeditated strike.

Also, why wouldn't the DA just ask the DW team member to smuggle the prisoner out to a location where the DA's could pick him up with less gunfire? Seems like that would be the path of choice.

Gotto agree with Charmander in regards to the Dark Angels. While I figure that a First Founding Chapter may get away with alot, I don't think that the Dark Angels would easily be able to get away with a thing like this.

Another option for an reason for Space Marine combat would be to use either renegade (not Chaos Space Marines) Space Marines who may have disguised themselves as Deathwatch and are doing some mercenary job. Another option may also be to have a warband of Astartes from various successor Dark Angels Chapters under some fanatic that will do absolutely anything to get hold of the fallen. Using semi-renegades under a madmen who've gone AWOL may provide the same scenario, but with less stuff to the setting to clean up or explain away afterwards.

Delahunt said:

I don't. You're talking about an open attack on the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition. Battle Brothers from a dozen Chapters will be killed, and a dozen Chapters will not take that laying down either.

"Dear Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Black Templars etc. Your seconded Battle Brother(s) won't be rejoining you because they were gunned down by Dark Angels for no apparent reason, in an unprovoked attack. Would you mind helping us wipe out these traitors as part of a co-ordinated crusade? Signed Deathwatch and the Ordo Xenos."

Dark Angels are secretive. Not stupid.

Now: Plausable deniability through acting via a third party is more viable, but are the Dark Angels really about to risk that just on the say-so of someone settling a grudge? And attack a Deathwatch watch station? Or are they going to look into the details prior to acting hastily and actually read the transmission, rather than take someone's word on what it says?

hmm. I like a lot of what you guys are saying here. Lots of fun ideas to twist it and make it better at the same time.

Thanks! One of the problems I have with running DW is, of the entire game, only one person knows less about the 40k universe than me. So a lot of things I go with on what I do know, have read, or listening. Still, lots of good stuff here for interesting twists. So, again, thanks a lot.

50 to 100 DA sounds a bit much to me....thats half a compagnie or even more than one....why would that entire compagnie be there....
Make it an experienced strike force, 2 to 3 squads, with some of theme having DW experience...

Santiago said:

That, to me, makes the offense of assaulting the DW even more aggregious. That said, if played from the Dark Angel PoV, it could make for some interesting roleplaying as you go through the whole conflicted loyalties bit.

That aside, if there are 20-30 DW marines I'd expect you to want to at least equal their number, especially if the DW is considered to be an elite fighting force. I imagine however that the traitor marine in the Watch Station would be feeding the DAs numbers and skill levels in order to plan an appropriate invasion force. If you want to actually do this and not get caught (and probably excommunicated or attacked by a dozen chapters) you need to make sure their is NO record of you being there; that means overwhelming force, every DW marine except your pal is killed (and even his death would probably need to be faked, so a couple of other bodies would have to be 'stolen') or he'd have to get VERY good at his deceive- though that in itself could be a very cool RP opportunity- the guy left behind to tell the tail of 'chaos attacking' to 'rescue' the prisoner, then what guilt would he feel as he stands among his fallen fellows, the ones he bled with and started to trust), and every bit of evidence it was a 'loyalist' chapter scrubbed from the databanks of the station.

Alternately take a squad made up of stealth specialists, like scout sergeants or the like, to try and sneak in and take the prisoner without killing more than a few serfs and servitors.

I like the stealth idea a lot. It fits the Dark Angels better, and it would be much safer.

And don't forget, for the assault : you have to find a way to block astropaths...Because if you don't, there's a good chance word will be spread around via astropathic messages that you guys in dark green have been bad fellas.

Stormast said:

That thought had totally escaped my mind, that's a good point. I'd imagine that would be one of the first things they'd do if they saw an overwhelming force coming to take them out/

However, the Watch Station has to have an astropath for it to be a concern. Watch Fortresses would I bet, but the bit about DW Marines having to collect data from Stations to take back to Erioch suggests they don't have a way of transmitting the information themselves. Could be wrong here though, can't recall precisely

If the attackers have an inside man for the job, wouldn't it be possibe for him to question the Astropaths? Maybe planting and hiding some form of explosives in an appropriete place and then set it off when the attackers emerge?

I'd imagine it depends on the astropath? Would there be a keeper or something watching over them or would they just trust all the battle brothers and give them free access (I imagine it's somewhere implied in RoB but I've not read enough of that book to know)?

I did think of a pretty good reason why you'd want an assault team to be just barely big enough to win rather than my overwhelming force theory: plausable deniability. Frame them as renagades should they get caught somehow, denouce their honor and family lineage, all that sort of upstanding spy stuff. If a squad or two goes off course it's easier to say "chaos did it" or "they must have been mislead" or the harder to prove "Imposters!" Not nearly as bad as if a whole company (or half a company) that goes to blow up the Inquisition. "They betrayed the Astartes and they betrayed the Dark Angels, they will be punished for their crimes." That sort of thing, use them as scapegoats. Now whether or not they know they're scapegoats ahead of time is a different question, the answer to which could lead to more complications.

I'm not too sure about Excommunication Traitoris on this. Dark Angels are a First Founding chapter and as such already likely to get away with a lot. Secondly, they are not exactly alone. They have the whole Forsaken line of other chapters supporting them, so who would even have the strenght to pursue such edict even if verdict was given?

Last, but not least, who would giving Excommuncation serve? Certainly if the Dark Angels had publicly attacked Deathwatch they would have to react simply to preserve the image of everything being under control in Imperium and to not give a precedent on how Space Marines can go and freely attack Inquisition and Deathwatch... However, Watch Fortress is hardly a public location. Inquisitors might start to keep more eye on Dark Angels, Deathwatch might put Dark Angel members under greater scrutiny, but Excom would mean going public on everything... Which would also tell the world a bit too much about Deathwatch, Inquisition and Watch Fortresses.

Lets take an example from how Badab War started:

Astral Claws chapter blasts a whole sectorial tithe-fleet to high heaven. Publicly even. Sector authorities protest to Navy. Navy says: "This is a local conflict and not our responsibility". Sector sends two more tithe-fleets which both vanish on route to Badab. Sector authorities protest to Inquisition. Inquisition says: "There is no clear proof against Astral Claws or You being the culprit so we won't get involved." In this case Inquisition only becomes involved once several Space Marine Chapters are fighting each other in massive scale...

If a public slaughter of Administratum tithe fleet and vanishing of the two following ones isn't enough to Excom a "normal" Chapter, why would a small-scale, ultra-secret attack on an organization that does-not-publicly-exist on a base which-is-not-on-any-maps be enough to Excom Dark Angels?

The Inquisition and all of those First Founding Chapters that they just murdered members on certainly have the strength to persecute the DAs.

Charmander said:

Three times, at minimum, assuming it was going to be a proper shooting fight. We are looking at least a Company here... and perhaps a civil war all because someone didn't like another member of their Chapter and mis-reported a communication. Seriously: The DA's aren't hypno-conditioning their recruits enough if they're happy to see their entire Chapter wiped out over a minor personal grudge!

Those were just administatum. Killing space marines is a whole other kettle of fish, especially when multiple first founding chapters are involved. The DA chapter would need a deathwish to carry out an extermination mission on that crowd and allow any hint of it to escape. Astropaths wouldn't be on every watch station, but they're more likely to be around if said station is manned (collecting data from unmanned ones is indeed a mission type). DA can get their man on the inside to murder, "convert" or disable the astropath ahead of time. Or better yet to ensure said astropath is sending out misinformation "Under attack by chaos renegades! Send help!". Then kill them with "renegade" bolt rounds, just to be sure. It's still a risky mission, but precautions could be taken.

I dont't really get it...

Decessor said:

I'm sure if Space Marines serving in DW would be killed in this attack other chapters would respond somehow, but I'm equally sure Inquisition would not write up an Excom. Excommunicating the Dark Angels would be a public statement saying that even the best of the first founding chapters can be attacked and it would lead to Imperium wide civil war between all the Forsaken Chapters and rest of Imperium. A war which Imperium would win but could not afford to start nevertheless. Surely losing 20 marines is bad for imperium but is imperium REALLY ready to publicly Excom 1000 marines, have 10 000 more go renegade, then lose a minimum of another 11 000 marines to kill off each and every one of the renegade chapters so losing a total of 22 000 marines just because of those 20 killed Deathwatch marines? I doubt it.

At worst it would lead to shadow war between Dark Angels and several other chapters and Inquisition would do its **** best to keep it under wraps, but public Excom and a threat of galaxy-wide civil war that makes Badab War look like school-yard scrap. NEVER.

Decessor said:

This is what I would do if I was a DA.

If the Inqusition has actual proof (not chaos renegades, but of actual Dark Angel involvement) that a first founding chapter can no longer be trusted to not attack Imperial forces, including other first founding chapters, then not purging them (at least of the "rogue elements") seems the riskier policy. The alternative is to leave a publically trusted but privately renegade force of marines loose in the Imperium, which could be seen as a treasonous act in itself. The Imperium has incurred massive losses in order to purge even suspected traitors in the past, dealing with the Unforgiven is just a matter of scaling up the casualties.

If nothing else, the Inquisition would be hard pressed to stop the chapters of the murdered marines from enacting immediate and bloody vengeance, if not outright warfare. If the Space Wolves hear about this, their reaction would be pretty predictable.

Though frankly I'm hard pressed to believe the DA would be that hellbent on risking the very survival of their chapter and the rest of the Unforgiven on a single mission.

On the other hand, it sends a strong message. If you only punish red-headed step-children, then the first born will do as they wish. Punish those who are most loved, and it sends a strong message. And frankly, the Inquisition have been suspicious of the DA's for long enough that I can't help but think that overt treachery would cause an 'At last, the traitors make their move and we can finally crush them' kind of reaction.

Siranui said:

True enough. In Badab War example when the Inquisition finally did get involved we have to remember the Astral Claws were not just anyone. They were not first founding, but they were one of the most loyal and praised of all chapters. However, in that particular case it DID take dozens of years of denying tithes and geneseed along with destruction of three tithe fleets (who were supposed to gather the geneseed tithe for Ad Mech too) and an all-out war with four chapters on one and two chapters on other side before the Inquisition had to take a stand.

Now every case is always different, but lets make a little comparison:

Risk: Astral Claws had three allied chapters for a total of four (4) chapters. Dark Angels and Unforgiven are at least seven (7) chapters.

Crime commited: Astral Claws had refuse geneseed tithe and sectorial tithes. They had destroyed one full fleet, including its Ad Mech component and were suspected of detroying two other fleets. They were actively involved in hostilities with at least two (2) other chapters. Dark Angels attacked a Deathwatch base and some marines died.

At least when compared to what started Badab War DA's launching an operation on Deathwatch doesn't really rank much.

Polaria said:

Not in the terms that you couch it.

How about: Attacked a priceless Inquisitorial facility, murdered Throne Agents and an Inquisitor, aided Xenos, disrupted a Crusade, and attacked 20 Chapters, including 6+ First Founding Chapters.

And that's not counting the times Unforgiven chapters have outright abandoned allies in the field of battle for unspoken purposes or have acted suspiciously in other manners. Giving the finger to that many first founding chapters would be the camel-breaking straw methinks.

Decessor said:

Except that the other chapters need never know. Deathwatch has this one rule "You never talk to anyone, not even your own chapter, about things that happened in Deathwatch." Now if I was an Inquisitor seeing over the investigations of attack on Watch Fortress Erioch and lest say it was attacked by DAs and several dozen marines die. Would I go out of hand and immeadeatly write up an Excom against DAs? No. My job, as Inquisitor, is first and foremots to protect Imperium and mankind. Throwing Imperium into yet another civil war is not what I'm here to do. Would I let DAs get scot free? Of course not.

Here is how I would do it:

1) Establish evidence that the attackers are, indeed, Dark Angels (geneseed markers examined).

2) Order everyone in Deathwatch to keep silent of the attack, telling no-one, including other Deathwatch. I would use the pretense that we don't know who the attackers really are and how the secret location of Watch Fortress was uncovered.

3) Put each and every DA serving in Watch Fortress under 24/7 surveillance to find out who leaked the location of the Watch Fortress to DAs.

4) Assemble a retribution force from other Astartes Chapters, using the most psychotic imperial loyalists imaginable (Minotaurs and other such are great candidates), reinforce it with a few imperial assassins and send them to hunt down the exact marines who did the attack and the captains, navigators and astropaths of the ships that carried them to the secret location ofthe Wacth Fortress.

Next comes the punch:

March down to DA Chapter Master, handing him back all the DAs who had been serving in DW, saying that any or all of them have broken a sacred vow to Imperium by revealing the location of Watch Fortress to outsiders. Detail the attack and tell the Chapter Master that x number of his marines, shipboard crews and ships are under sealed Excom warrant and task force is ready to open the orders, read the evidence and pursue the warrant if I don't take it back.

"So, Mr. Chapter Master... There is only two ways we can do this: One is that you you personally catch and execute the traitorous dogs that attacked us providing us with necro-cortex transcripts of how they died as a proof and giving their equipment, vessels and geneseed over to us for purity checks. Or... You can refuse, or even kill me, and a task force of psychotic bulls and Imperial Assassins will pursue the warrant to catch, interrogate and kill everyone they suspect of being associated with the attackers. Warrant also includes full rights for the pursuers to do deep mind-scans on anyone they capture.

I mean, Mr. Chapter Master, I know how much you Dark Angels love to keep your secrets. The price of keeping them now is that you have to kill a few dozen of your own and give over a few ships and all the other equipment used in the attack to use. If you do not do this, I have just made **** sure that there is a task force prepared to rip out your secrets from your people by force. So the only question is, do you want to lose little or do you want to lose big?"