Lynata, you take Sandy Mitchell to task for not doing enough research on the Adepta Sororitas but then admit to making the same mistake, not having actually read Cain's Last Stand to see if your assumptions are accurate.

I have read the book, your assumptions are not accurate. Sister Julien is many things, but a "drunken ****" is not one of them. Sister Julien is shown to play a card game yes, using the Emperor's Tarot no less, because that game acts as a cover so the most experienced Imperial military officers on the planet can begin planning said planet's defense against a possible Chaos incursion during the 13th Black Crusade. Sister Julien has unique insights that her decades of combat experience give her, on par with the contributions from the navy officer, the ex-storm trooper colonel, and the commissar. I'm not sure how her attendence in the game, including its social drinking (she is never shown to get drunk or even slightly tispy) which in reality is a command conference, turns her in to a "loose girl you might get to play strip poker with".

I think it speaks highly of Sister Julien that not only has she hidden her skills at the game from the rest of her colleagues, but she is also better at a game that requires strategy and thought than even the book's protagonist. Should a Sister not be good at strategy and forethought? If it eases your outrage any, she even says she will take her winnings and donate them to the Ministorum the next day. I fail to see how that conflicts with any of the fluff regarding the Adeptas at all.

As for your accusation that Sister Julien sleeps around with any one with an Y chromosone, there is only one instance where it is implied that she is having a physical relationship with one of the other teachers at the Schola. And I stress implied, it is not shown 'on screen' as it where. Amberley Vail's footnote on the subject does indeed state that the Adeptas do not require an oath of celibacy, but she also continues on to state that the duties and the life of a Sister does not leave much if any time for them to take advantage of that fact. So your concerns are explicitly addressed by the book in question, and again would not appear to violate the fluff.

So Sister Julien is a competant tactician, a strong willed woman, and loyal to the Emperor to the core while taking her duties very seriously. She is is neither a drunkard, nor a ****, nor some sort of floozy who disregards her duty to have fun. She does actually have some fun in her life, which is what seems to upset you so much. Why is denying millions of fictional future women any degree of happiness, pleasure, and enjoyment of any of life's simple things so important to you? The Adepta Sororitas are made up of human women, the female half of the population of the Imperium of Man, yet you seem to want to deny them their humanity. I think Sister Julien is a far more interesting and compelling character than the other Sisters we see in the Cain series because she is quite clearly human, while at the same time unique. I don't understand why that disqualifies her as a good example of the Adepta Sororitas.

As for the Schola itself being gender-segregated, except for 'religious occasions', the Schola does indeed appear quite gender segregated for the purposes of the Adepta and the Ministorum. Only in Cain's cadre of commissariat cadets does there appear to be any mixing of genders, with the inclusion of one female cadet in his charge. Over the course of the series, and Last Stand is book 6, Mitchell's gone out of his way to explain that guard regiments are almost universally gender-segregated, with male regiments far outnumbering female. The Valhallan 597th being an exception because it was the cobbled together remains of an all male and an all female regiment. The all female regiments function best with female commissars. Cain is the only commissar on the planet, the only one at the school, it makes no sense to run a completely separate cirriuculum for one female cadet.

The rest of the schola shows no signs of being gender integrated. There are no co-ed dorms. The commissar cadets do get to occasionally watch the sororitas trainees run through thier paces on the obstacle course, but that is only because Cain likes to teach outside, atop one of the towers of the schola's defensive wall. The schola students do eat communally, which makes sense due to the Schola's small size and the small population of the planet. I live near a private Islamic school, once in high school my band had a concert there because their auditorium had superior accoustics to my own (public) school. We got to walk through the school on our way to the auditorium, it was gender segregated as more conservative Islamic teaching requires, but even there in a real world analogue to what the Schola would appear to be, there would have been plenty of opportunities for the male and female students to see one another and exchange glances, brief hellos, and the like. Unless every Schola in the Imperium, every where and always, has the male school on one side of the planet and the female school on the other, I don't see how the Schola on Perlia violates fluff either.

I personally really enjoyed the Cain series, and yes I fully understand that it is a lighter, softer 40k than just about anything else out there. Given the still quite heavy amounts of GrimDark in the series, I don't see that as a failing. One of the things Mitchell is good at is consistency, both to the established canon and across his books. I would without hesitation recommend the Cain series to anyone, it offers up another viewpoint on life in the Imperium, especially life in the Imerpial Guard, and on what being used by an Inquisitor is like. Try it, with an open mind, you might like it.

iridium said:

I've had the respective parts quoted to me, and that sufficed to both let me realize the contradictions as well as the unfitting socialization where it is not meant to exist. Unlike Mitchell/Stewart, I do not get paid for this stuff, so I don't see why I would have to read more when I already know I'll dislike it.

Yes, I've been exaggerating, but that doesn't change what he (the author) has written. I'm sick of seeing people pull this one novel as a justification - there certainly are ways to bring an erotic touch or fan service to the setting, this organization included, but it simply should not be as easy as to just go and claim that Sisters have no problem getting laid. It is my opinion, born of studio descriptions, that they serve as a living embodyment of the Imperial Cult, and when "constant self-denial" is one of their central themes, then this sort of stuff simply does not fit in.

I can see that, as a fan of the book, you may feel compelled to defend it. I can relate, and I have reacted to criticism against novels I liked in the past as well, but facts remain facts - this includes studio statements about the Adepta Sororitas just as much as what constitutes canon and what not.

iridium said:

Because these particular degrees of fun are anathema to their canon style. It is what I commonly refer to as an author's attempt at "humanizing" characters beyond what the setting, because the respective author believes this would make them more charismatic, more interesting and easier to identify with. This happens most often in Space Marine novels (probably also a result of their sheer number), but given the Sisters' rather spartanic lifestyle they are just as prone to being displayed as "more relaxed" if handled by an author who feels compelled to use this trick to get the reader to like them more.

Generally, characters who originate from such extreme lifestyles are very difficult to "get right" because most writers find it hard to tell a compelling story without changing the actors' to make them more interesting as well - this often leads to what is either mocked as "bolter porn" or the writers taking certain liberties with the characters to have them appeal to a wider audience. Very few people actually get it right and hit that balance that makes even a heavily indoctrinated fighting machine seem like a unique personality. In this regard, it's certainly more difficult to write about Marines or Sisters than Guardsmen, but of course that doesn't keep people from doing it.

And as for your thoughts about there not being an oath of celibacy ... studio canon mentions examples from their laws, and they have at least 6 books of rules, of which the 6th volume has at least 352 commandments. Do you honestly think there's nothing inside that restricts their contact, when (a) they are all about giving up everything in their service, and (b) their monasteries are men-free zones and contact to outsiders is limited to the Canonesses and her most trusted Superiors?

A Sister who isn't fighting, working or sleeping will spend her time praying and meditating. It really is that easy.

iridium said:

I'm sure that the Imperium as a whole would have enough female cadets to sport at least one Schola with a class dedicated exclusively to them. In fact, they should not be that rare. Worlds that raise all-female Regiments also have a need for rather large numbers of female Commissars, so Scholae with female Commissar-classes would likely be located in the appropriate region, though also service other planets depending on the demands of the Munitorum. Of course, a centralized education is possible as well - for example, given the extremely small number of Storm Troopers in the Imperial Guard it stands to reason that there would not be that many progena, though one could probably argue this one with an extremely high failure rate.

In any case, GW fluff remains GW fluff, and given the aforementioned quotes I do not believe any author can override it that easily. In some cases it may be beneficial (depending on your personal preferences), but in this case it is my opinion (based on my preferences to have the Sisters Militant remain somewhat removed from being cliché "warrior grrls") that this is a good thing. Also makes for a more consistent setting, of course.

@OP: Sorry for hijacking your thread with this debate.

Lynata, you claim that the Adepta Sororitas have an oath of celibacy. I will concede to you and your encyclopediadic knowledge of the One True Source of canon information on the Adepta Sororitas, their Codex, if you can provide me a direct quote that says unambigously that such an oath exists. You have mentioned the extensiveness of their laws, six volumes, thousands of commandments. I would imagine that stating the Sisters have such an oath would be a very big and character defining piece of fluff to include. So please quote the codex, chapter and verse, that explicitly states the Adepta Sororitas take an oath of celibacy. Nothing else will do, no assumptions such as those you've already given. Provide that unequivical proof, and I will agree with you that Mitchell was wrong.

Please note that I am trying to argue that because of this one book, all Sisters everywhere are "drunken sluts" or that the character of Sister Julien in any way comes close to justifying such an interpretation. I felt the need to correct your inaccuracies, the book does not say what you believe it to. Your fight with people who have tried to use it to say that Sisters can be "drunken sluts" is with them, not with the book, nor with me. Neither I nor the book in question say any such thing.

"The Adepta Sororitas are a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime."
RT:bIV

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan . During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. [...] In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
C:SoB-p33

"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies."
C:SoB-p35

"Totally incorruptible and dedicated to a life of penitent worship and humble living , the Sororitas are used to enforce the will of the Emperor as interpreted by the Ecclesiarch and the Holy Synod."
C:SoB-p57

"The Sisters of Battle are shining examples of all that is good about Humanity, the pinnacle of faith, devotion and purity ."
C:WH-p2

"To the Adepta Sororitas, penitence and self-mortification is a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the Master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful subjects."
C:WH-p10

If the above does not suffice and you are convinced that having the freedom to enjoy sex for fun can indeed be combined with "extreme self-denial", "strict and puritan", "deprivation" and 100% devotion to their faith and respective tasks, then I sadly cannot help you. That said, whilst all this still does not contain an explicit oath of celibacy (which would be unnecessary, given that the descriptions already present pretty much include it as far as I am concerned), it at least clearly debunks Mitchell's idea about Sororitas novices happily playing ball games with male progena.

Not that it matters. As already quoted on the previous page, all these novels are meaningless until GW decides to adopt their contents into official studio canon. The contradiction of Mitchell's work in this regard does extend into non-studio material as well, though. For example, FFGs own Inquisitor's Handbook specifically uses the term "chaste " for the Sisters, whereas the Daemonifuge graphic novel talks about "forbidden affections" .

I'm sorry, but personally, I simply prefer if the Sisters would remain an army of fanatically devoted Jeanne d'Arc's ... rather than a bunch of common girls with power armour and a token bible. Devotion and purity are meaningless unless lived.

Lynata said:

I don't know. The Cain books while a bit lighter then say Gaunts Ghosts still has a interesting view on 40k, mostly to say it doesn't have to be as Grim and Dark as most put it. (don't mis understand 40k is still a pretty bleak place in the books.) It also paints a decent picture of the foes of the Imperium as seen by a (mostly) normal human. All in all I would say that if you want a slightly more layered look at 40k then having the Cain books included in the reading list won't put you wrong.

Lynata said:

The 10+ year old, 2nd edition, Sister of Battle Codex...

Blood Pact said:

If we were to simply delete everything not in the latest edition from our perception, even though it's never been retconned/changed, we'd loose out on a whole lot of fluff ...

On all subjects, mind you, including those that would likely be of more importance to you.

To be honest, the issue of Sororitas celebacy comes up time and again.

It boils down to this core issue of perception:

Do you view the Ecclesiarchy as more the roman catholic (sending out missionaries, enforcing doctine, promoting civlians breeding, but priests being celebate)?

OR

Do you view the Ecclesiarchy more as the Nazi SS (an idealogical and political beast that enforces doctrine, but fully encourages its members to breed so that there are more members)?

There is some large overlap, but as so much of the secondary and even prime canon is contradicting i think it's one of those issues where we'll all just have to agree to put our own personal spin on things and not to yell too strongly at others if they contradict.

Personally though, there is far more published material pointing to the latter of the two options above that i follow the idea that certain orders may require it of their sisters, but it is not a universally enforced celibacy issue. I mean, the Sister Famulous are often encouraged to marry into certain noble families to better monitor the purity and devoutness of the bloodlines!

Kasatka said:

Whilst you do have a point regarding keeping discussions civil, I am not aware of any "prime canon" suggesting different from what I quoted. It's a pretty consistent theme - and Mitchell's book is also the single-only "secondary canon" source to suggest this, contradicted by Daemonifuge and FFG's Inquisitor's Handbook. If people want to run a different portrayal of the Sisterhood in their game, that is their every right, but I do think that such contradictions should be pointed out when someone asks for sources.

Furthermore, I partially agree about the Nazi SS comparison (it just seems fitting), but even there you still have a huge difference between "being ordered to breed"* and having the freedom to breed with anyone you like, anywhere and at any time you want to.

*: Something that, whilst I could see this exist in the Imperium somewhere (actually, this might be a pretty cool adventure hook!), surely does not exist within the Sororitas, much less the valuable Sisters of Battle - there is absolutely no reason to basically remove such important and highly trained personnel from active duty for several months when you have a galaxy full of fertile women that are not as necessary for their respective posts. Even if you stay within the Ecclesiarchy you would still have female servants and clergy (note that I never doubted a lack of such an oath of celibacy for the priests themselves), or all those millions of girls from the Schola who were not admitted into the Sisterhood but rather bound for a job in the Adeptus Terra.

Kasatka said:

Where did you read that ? o_O
Sisters Famulous are sent into noble families as secretaries, advisors and nannies, but I can't recall any instance that would have suggested carnal relationships.

Lynata said:

I shall endevour to remember the source material for this line of thinking. I don't believe it was outright stated as such, but the implication was that by permanently 'attaching' Famulous to an important bloodline, the Ecclesiarchy can be given greater control over them.