ok , so from all the games i have played over the last 20 years , i have come to cringe at the thought of learning ANOTHER rules system , and this isnt just in the minis genre .

i recently did a trade on BGG where i traded my necromunda stuff off and got in trade 2 redblok walkers and a unit of kolossi from at 43 , a copy of dark future from late 80's gamesworkshop , and a copy of thunder road from early 80's milton bradly .

so the walkers are unimportant to this conversation since i am getting them for doing some conversions .

but the dark future and thunder road are perfect examples of this particular thought .

both are BOARD GAMES , both are games in the mad max , road warrior genre , but both approach it from different mindsets , targeting different audiences , and as a result both arrive at verry different destinations .

i think there is a serious impression by alot of people that board games are generaly overly simple , and that minis games are generaly overly complex .

thunder road looks to be a fun light game , that gives you a little feel , and could occupy a good night of "beer and pretzel" fun , watching movies and playing the game . the rules are light , easy to read , and easy to teach . they are the standard pamphlet design , and should be easy to memorize after 1-good game . its a very generic setting that players can see as happening in their country , BUT its kinda TOO light .

dark future on the otherhand is probably the worst written rule set i have ever seen . they are spread out over a 100 page rule book , mixed in with all the poorly written fluff . infact the fluff is so badly written , that while the game takes place in the USA in the late 1990's or farther into the future , many of the circumsatnces that they site as happening in the 1990's or later , were already going on in the US in the 1980's . the rules contradict themselves in more than a few places , or give exceptions to the rules in small hard to keep track of instances . the rules are wordy to the point of being confusing , and hard to follow . infact if i didnt want so hard to believe that GW had better judgement , i would have to wonder if they didnt hire an exchange student in the third grade to write the rules book , and i havent even gotten to the motor cycle rules yet , which introduce still more rules variations/exceptions .

i want to play the game , but i dont see that happening any time soon . i am sure its a great game , lots of fun , but good lord the rules make it hard to approach .

and i bring all this up because after all the games i have played , i think dust has come the closest to the perfect balance between simple to understand , and rich in the experience .

we can all name other minis games that we have played , and yet we are all still here , loving DT .

and thus i wonder how other games would look if the DT mechanics were applied to them ?

how would a DT fantasy varient game play out ?

i love to look through the "gas light" gallery on BGG , and wonder how a steam punk DT varient would feel ?

each game would have the core DT mechanics , but each would potentially also have little tweaks to fit better into their genre , such as having facings and using movement trays for the fantasy variant .

its not like this is some unique thought , since some of the biggest hit systems have doen similar , but noone seems to have really brought it up before so .........................

They certainly are a great set of rules but I don't think I'd re-write for another setting at them moment as I've alraedy got great, simple rules systems that I use. I use Mongoose World at War for modern and WW2 stuff and for pretty much everything else I use variations of GW's LOTRSBG rules. These again are often dismissed for being to simple, and they are, which is good as like DT you can concentrate on tactics rather than ready up rules every turn, which is all I see WH and Malifux players do at club.

The biggest problem with converting DT rules over is that they are limited in size to skirmish games and don't think they will work so well if you start using larger armies due to the alternate activation system. This is speculation though, has anybody tried large games? How did they work out? Another problem is that they are not very flexible when it comes to model or unit design.

Just thought, these rules would be great for 'gang' type games.

i dont think it would take much of a rewrite , just a few tweaks to differentiate it . the way i see it , the unit abilities would add more to the flavor of the game than anything else . for instance , proxie the americans with imperial guard , and the germans with space orks , it can still work , just needs a major change in art and fluff . it wouldnt make this game WH40K , but would fit just as well with those 2 armies filling rolls and fighing it out .

what got me thinking about this was the trade deal i did . early on , one of the counter offers included a copy of lion hart , which i own , but had wanted more of to make a bigger set , and a copy of battle masters . both are some what simple games , and with just a little modification could be made dust like , and one of the new temporary players that learned the game said that fantasy settings were generaly more interesting to him than sci-fi games . sadly , he is loving the game , and now that he is playing it , he has to move next month to austin for a new job .

my FLGS has had some problems getting their DT in , so most have had limited choices on growing their forces . so far the largest i have been able to face was a 42 point game (i my self have plenty of points for germenay , but my opponents not so much ) . works great . i'm gonna over see a larger game next sunday , i am gonna try to push them to try 50 points by loaning out my figs .

with the ease we have had with the game , i think 50 will be the basic highwater mark , not because adding more units complicates things , but because at 50 points , the game is still so simple that it feels odd to still be able to accomplish more with 42 points in an hour or 2 than warhammer 40K players can with 1500 point armies in an afternoon . it just feels odd , its still fast , still fun , and you can set up and play again swapping out units if you want .

I'm not sure if it's my place to chime in (not being a very serious gamer), but I believe it's possible, if you already have a basic gaming system set up, to swap the characters or minis involved, and play them using the said gaming system. If the WH gamers have a BLAST fighting their 1500pt armies, using a relatively cumbersome system, I'm sure it's gonna be much more easier when you're adopting the DT system.

elfbait said:

but to change it over , you have do do a major rewrite . WH and other games are written to involve huge units with differnt LOS and facing and combat mechanics and cheese . you could adapt them , but it would still not achieve the simplicity or true benifits that just making a slight varient to the game , and new units would .

oh and chime in all you want , discussions are appreciated , wheather i agree or not

I sometime kit bash rule set. Case in point. My Warhammer 40K. I love the models, but not the rules. I'm not a huge fan of modern warfare, but LOVE the Modern Warfare set of rules made by Mongoose games. Reason are they are simple, with a very cool rule that if you fire or move within 10" of a enemy unit, that enemy unit may give a orders such as move, or shoot as a interuption. Works simple and is effective. Use 40k rules, but with the interupting rule from Mongoose, and thier streamline close combat. That said.....

I have, and will be selling off most of my different games and rules. Why? Because it is a pain to learn another system, and I'll stick to less than 5 total. DT however has become the TOP of my short list of rules and games to keep.

GrandInquisitorKris said:

You don't need to change the rules system at all, just make up stat cards for whatever race you want to put in to DT and make the 40k models or whatever fit into Dust.

Major Mishap said:

i think i missunderstood the opriginal poster . i thought he was suggesting blending systems .

the only issue might be if you bring minis from another system , that if players want to make them kinda like they were stats and ability wise under the old system , they may have to be willing to either accept that their characters and units might need toning down to remove the cheese that they had under an old system , make them generic or over from scratch , or be so incredibly over priced that they may only be able to field one figure if they want to transfere over the abilities depending on how broken they might have been .

Yeah, you won't get an exact match due to obvious differences in the simpler Dust rules, but I'm sure you can give them Dust rules to give a feel of the new race. I'll be making up cards for all my Dalek and Cybermen (if anything fits in, these time travelling dudes will ) and maybe a friends Necrons.

ok , so DT is KINDA unique in that its an ALT history WW2 minis game put out as the first , as opposed to alot of companies that put out multiple lines and seek to cash in on the sci-fi future genre like WH40k , infiniti , At-43 .

and it strikes me as how ironic it would be if DG bought the rights to confrontation , and AT-43 and gave the games a masive reboot by switching them over to the dust system , cutting out the cheese , used the ORIGINAL fluff and art to take those games in the fun friendly direction DT is .

for the AT universe , they could just repackage the factions and play it forward based on a new alt geopolitical map . i love all those movies fromthe 1930's-60's where man is still fighting the cold war and yet also has suddenly managed to jump to the point of haveing interstellar travel . so what f in the 70's the factions took to colonizing space not under the guise of exploration , but in a race to secure new resources and secret factory space ,

now flash forward to say a 500 years ahead . each faction has vast swathes of nearby space , we wouldnt need to have battles to conrol the galaxy , just near by solar systems which is much more plausable .

while they got a boost in 1938 , their constant war has also slowed progress down due to constant fighting over territory .

UNA becomes UNE and gets repackaged as the allies .

redblock as sinosoviets

ONI gets a name change but is repackaged as the axis

karmans are a german experiment that advanced to far , got away and started their own planet of the apes culture hell bent on taking over .

therians are an new alien threat , same basic fluff and concept , but just now from a planet other than earth as their home world .

the vrill replace tha kogs

they burn the army books and start over with new characters (same molds , just all new names and fluff ) .

and the ironic part would be that if DG and FFG approached the new lines in the same friendly fun manner that DT is going , it would go places AT cant because rackham scewed it up so badly , and would last a heck of alot longer !

and i cant help wondering , since my understanding is that AT-43 was what rackham did with the dust idea when parente went to them , how much it would suck to be in rackham , look back on what they did , and see DT doing so well .

Major Mishap said:

ya , and while you are at it you might even be able to make them more fitting . alot of the WH40k rules seem based around building cheese , so you can roll lots of dice . but imagine a few new abilities that would add flavor , and not break a game . like say amphibious for tyranids so that they can move through water without hindrance , chances are you wont see much water on a battle field , but it would add to the flavor and give them an ability that would fit with the fluff without just adding bunches of dice . little things like that .

ya , i think i need to get out some other ideas i have been putting to far behind on the shelf and get some unit cards made up to .