Hey guys.

I have been following the forums here for a while, and some recent discussions with a gm friend of mine have me wondering whether or not we are missing something.

Rank 1 Rogue Trader characters start with 5000 xp. 500 to spend on advances and 4500 representative of the origin path choices.

Attempting to add some much needed variety to our personal guard we decided to branch out and draw them up using DH career paths. As the RT book suggests we started the DH characters off with 5000xp effectively making them rank 6 with access to a slew of talents and skills some of which their counterpart RT characters of 7k-9k are nowhere near reaching.

How do you remedy the fact that a DH character with 5k xp can be a one man killing machine if built for a singular purpose: protecting the retinue?

Normally it wouldn't be an issue other than the RTs being less capable then the people under their command, but if the guard became rebellious there would be little to stop them from tearing said retinue to shreds.

With talents like step aside, swift attack, lightning attack etc. against rank 2 rogue traders there's not much they couldn't handle. Hell, my arch-militant only gets access to swift attack at rank 8 at the apex of his career.

I guess what it comes down to is this. Building the characters has us questioning just how powerful a DH character should be in relation to a RT and vice versa.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Would it be prudent to step the DH character through a RT origin path representing 4500 xp of experience and then just giving them the same 500 to spend on Rank 1-5 talents and skills? I fear this approach would only delay the inevitable instead of addressing the issue.

By the same token I think altering the DH rank experience requirements might render them totally ineffective (why not just stick with RT careers).

Neither of us could see where the origin paths could compete with the 4500xp actually spent on a DH character’s advances.

I guess the root of the issue is two-fold. DH characters of equal xp have access to more powerful talents than RTs and generally at a cheaper rate.

Does it make sense to throw ranks out the window, and let skills and talents be purchased at cost regardless of xp “level”?

I think this might allow both RTs and DHs characters to purchase what they want and when rather than tipping the balance in one or the other’s favor.

Anyone else ever run into this issue? How did you resolve? Or did you just let it be?

Thanks

I have battled with this a few times, as you may find among the posts I have made.

My most recent conclusion is that the most simple way of handling this, is just to double all costs on DH xp progression and double rank xp requirements and then proceed to give the characters equal xp awards. When the DH character moves to ascension the RT character has just got rank 7. RT characters does start slightly better stats and a better background packages. I have yet to consider what happens when the DH character hits ascension, and then again what happens when the RT character hits max rank...

If you really want to make things equal, you have to convert the career paths from DH to RT so the DH characters use the same xp rank progression as RT chars. Then you also need to use judgement on what RT talents and skills should substitute DH talents and skills so the costs are the same, and this can prove to be a little challenging, if not impossible for the psyker.

In general if your players are really worried about internal balance in the group, this is quite an endeavour you are embarking on. Otherwise I think the double xp rule will probably be the easiest to implement and with understanding players quite workable.

Some progress...

We have been discussing the ideas you presented and kicking around various ones of our owns.

Currently we are leaning toward allowing a dual progression of sorts. Where a rogue trader like an arch-militant can draw skills and talents from a chosen dark heresy career like guardsman or scum for the purpose of purchasing talents and skills.

This offers a presumed "perfect balance" between the two allowing one to purchase abilities at an equal cost and rate between both systems. We of course are erroring on the side of more powerful pc's which rogue traders are implied to be with limited overhead on our part (i.e. rewriting all the career ranks).

While we haven't fully discussed ascension careers they offer some nice bonuses we are considering allowing our RTs, and fit nicely in the overall scheme we think.

Thoughts...

Let the DH character start with 25+2d10 stats, up all the relevant advances to 200 or 500xp (mis match a bit) and give them a simular ability the RT character classes have.
This should make them about even.
There was a previous topic which included expanded rules....

The main problem we encountered is that as written they're more powerful combat wise. A rank 5 or 6 assassin can have 4 attacks with a power weapon or two and gut a Rank 1 or 2 RT character. Even Guardsmen and other can have 2 3 or 4 attacks at rank 4 through 6 in DH. RT careers like the Arch militant get them when? Rank 7 or 8 NGL?

We have settled on a mishmash of the two systems. Players get to choose a Rogue trader career followed up by a precursor Dark Heresy career to represent their early days before becoming Rogue Traders. Obviously there are a few more rules involved, but what follows are the basics.

Players start with an amount of DH experience (equal to 4500 - the cost of the RT starting package (skills/talents)) they then list their RT and DH starting packages. RT skills that are duplicated by their DH counterparts are recouped at +100xp RT. Duplicate RT talents are replaced by the Talented (any) talent, and any DH weapon training talents made redundant by granted RT weapon group talents are recouped at +100xp DH.

The player then proceeds to spend their DH experience on advances as normal up through rank 5 (purchasing at least one advance in each rank). Once all DH experience has been spent the player continues on spending their 500 starter xp plus any experience gained from duplicate skills in the RT system as normal.

After the background DH experience is spent the player looses access to their precursor careers and are now Rogue Traders. This method will hopefully allow us to feel a bit more competent when mixing DH and RT characters in our campaign without combat engagements feeling entirely one sided.

Characters who don't wish to take advantage of the addition combat talents, and instead load up on skills will have only themselves to blame when squaring off against enemies capable of multiple attacks and reactions per round.

Just out of curiosity... have you tried to make a 15K DH or RT toon and compare it with a Marine? Don't even take into account the gear all that time would give you, just advanced skills vs starting Marine ones?

Why do I ask this? Because all the issues seem to stem from advanced talents vs basic ones. I don't have the books on me, but RT and DH toons start with the same stats? 2D10+20 ?

Isidro

Isidro,

Dark Heresy characters are 2d10+20. Rogue Trader characters are 2d10+25.

So, you are right that talents are a significant part of the balance issues, but they're not the only part.

I think and I always have that the difference and the failing between two systems at least (I have very limited knowledge of DW) is the talent and skill experience gap.

Instead of making Rogue Traders advance above and beyond DH characters they streched a similar progression out across a much larger experience pool.

This of course makes Rogue Traders who should be superior in almost all ways weaker than those from Dark Heresy.

The only real solution (one I am not being paid for) would be to rewrite the Rogue Trader advance tables making them as powerful as equal experience DH characters and providing them with somewhere to go after hitting the DH experience cap and carrying on into Ascension.

I don't like making DH advances more expensive as a solution. I do favor making Rogue Traders something other than DH characters who overpaid for their advances and got a few extra goodies at character creation.

Well, Deathwatch characters start with 30+2d10 in each stat.

As for the experience, a deathwatch marine starts with 12.000+1000 XP from a DH character PoW. Ascension level. The difference would be noted in: Deathwatch characters will have around of 40+N or so in all stats, while a DH one might have a 50 or two, and the rest at 30-ish or so. With a ton of talents, a lot of skills they will ditch for the Ascension ones, and inferior weapons. Deathwatch characters start, also, with Unnatural Characteristic in Strength and Stamina. And that counts a lot (specially for assault marines).

isidro said:

I have in fact. The problem is the comparison is skewed since Space Marines are bio-engineered humans that start with higher stats (2d10 +30) and a host of abilities that a DH/RT toon is very hardpressed to get. (unnatural abilities, acid spit, eating enemies to get their memories, ...).

The main problem i have with space marine characters compared to DH or RT ones is that there's a lot of skills that are ridiculously expensive for them to get. Swim and Climb are usually ok, but Scrutiny, Silent Move and others are in my mind rather basic skills that can cost up to 800 xp. Even for a space marine that's costly.

Space Marines are not known for theit subtlety. The Kill-Marine elite class (Rites of Battle) adds Silent Move and Conceal as basic skills you can buy for 200 or 400 XP each, each level, up to +20. Plus Stummers (Requisition 5 item that gives +30 to Silent Move tests for 20 minutes, requiring and hour to recharge).

Ascension Dark Heresy characters don't buy skills, they buy bundles of them. For example, RAW all the Scholastic Lores can be bought with 500 or so XP, same for Forbidden Lores and Scholastic lores.

Badlapje said:

I tend to believe that this (aside from also being fitting from a background PoV, for most skills at least) is meant to be sort of "balanced" by their combat abilities.

It's a similar thing with Dark Heresy characters in Rogue Trader: Yes, they may be individually "better", but Rogue Trader characters get some unique options when it comes to managing their resources and leading others. As good as DH careers are by themselves, the ability to have allies re-roll failed tests or give a flat bonus strikes me as much more useful when it comes to the larger picture. It's some sort of balancing yet again, incorporating very powerful options when in control of a voidship. It may be oversimplification, but perhaps RT characters should be seen as leaders, whereas DH characters are "rank and file" (though Ascension may change this on some level). The careers' respective qualities are distributed appropriately.

As far as crossovers with Deathwatch characters are concerned, Unnatural traits are pretty much broken, the stats of their equipment are much too good, and they have a number of special mechanics that do not exist in the other games (the latter is likely just a result of DW being a newer book, thus incorporating new ideas). They really don't strike me as very compatible for RT, or DH, unless you don't have any normal combat characters in your party and thus don't mind Marines stealing the show. Otherwise, perhaps something modeled after the Grey Knights in the upcoming Daemon Hunter book would be more suitable, given that they will use different rules to be compatible to Ascension level Acolytes (rank ~5 RT?). Or we could wait and see how it's done in Black Crusade.

Lynata said:

"Rank and file"...right.

Origin: Failing Up, Cost: 4500xp

Welcome to Rogue Trader a game of leaders and resource management. What's that you say? I am an Arch-Militant and don't even get the command skill till rank 3. Don't fret. You failed up. While the "rank and file" learned their lessons well you continually fell behind, or just plan refused to show up for training.

That doesn't mean you can't still be a leader of men. It just means you're incompetent and have to work harder to get things done half as well.

While you prefer to issue commands from the safety of your ship with every victory it becomes increasingly obvious that the ship pretty much runs itself and anyone of the "rank and file" aboard could do a better job than you.

Re-rolls are a pretty powerful ability. And those traits are something you get at the start (depending on the career, obviously) and cannot be attained by DH characters. Well, except with GM-approved elite advances, perhaps.

What exactly is it that you think RT characters need to be better in? I don't find it too hard to believe that characters whose main concern is shipboard live and leading others are more skilled in that area of expertise than in personal ground combat, just like the opposite is true for characters who are used to work by themselves.

And if your Arch-Militant doesn't have the Command skill ... well, I'd say that is indeed the result of your chosen Origin. My Arch-Militant has it since rank 1.

Ok so these special starting abilities you put so much faith in tell me which ones can't be eclipsed or emulated by a DH character where relevant to both systems.

Most are situational at best. The only reroll 'special' worth anything is a void-master's (a career I also play and is screwier than most in terms of advances).

RT Exceptional Leader: Once per round as a free action +10 to any one test he must be able to see them and they must be able to hear him.

• Unless he's mixing it up with 'em it requires he be watching a holofeed and in direct vox communication. Kinda situational but useful.

AM Weapon Master: Pick a weapon class and gain +10 hit +2 damage +2 init when using it.

• Nice but situational as a player will not always be using his chosen weapon class. Can be easily duplicated.

AT - I won't even pretend to understand psykers I don't play one and have no interest in them

• They are psykers idk

EX Explorator Implants Bionic implants

• Bionic upgrades nothing ground breaking. Easily duplicated through acquisitions. Tech Priest working for a RT money is no object.

MS Pure Faith

• Sororitas/Elite advance

NV - No real counterpart in DH more psyker type stuff

• 3rd Eye is cool

SN Seeker of Lore spend a fate point to auto succeed some situational tests in the shortest time and add a dos to a few rolls.

• Definition of situational useless junk buy the skill boosts with your DH adept spend fate to reroll if you fail or add 10 to your roll.

VM No real counterpart in DH; Mastery of Blank reroll any failed roll related to their mastery.

• The one and only thing that makes VM masters of the void it is the only 'special' that is actually special in my opinion. Fail reroll fail again spend fate to reroll granted DH didn't really cover them at all

Sorry, but explain to me how that Missionary has an edge of a Sororitas of 5k xp.

NGL said:

NGL said:

But, really? The Missionary comes with a f**kton of useful lore skills and is an excellent healer and can still be useful in combat. He's the proverbial jack-of-all-trades, likely owing to his profession which requires a great deal of adaptability. Compared to the Sororitas, he seems to incorporate a bit from every specialization, not excelling in either, but having a bit of all.

One example from his talents: the Fate Point buff that gives an enemy -10 to all ranged and melee attacks for the duration of the entire encounter for (depending on the character's WP) the entire group. Oh, and he gets immunity to Fear and Pinning as well. I'd call that quite useful.

It really sounds like you're trying hard to decry every single career in RT. The list in your post is extremely one-sided. Example: Explain to me how you can possibly duplicate the Arch-Militant's weapon class specialization? Or why the SoL's ability is "useless junk" just because it's non-combat? Yes, a DH character can boost his skills or use FP for re-rolls but, uh, so can the SoL, and a guaranteed success still strikes me as better than a chance for it, as high as it may be (which may not be as high as you think, depending on the modifiers).

I don't know. I am not saying that the careers are all perfectly balanced towards each other, but this is something that you have in every individual game system by itself - you do not need crossovers for that, and I don't even think that this is a problem as long as it stays within limits (meaning as long as other careers don't feel useless in an area where they should not). Yet, if these subtle differences are so much of a concern, imo you're doing something wrong. I've attempted to deliver a possible in-universe explanation for how these differences could be justified. If you don't like the general principle behind them, then I can be of no further assistance, as in that case all you could do is rewrite the classes. :/

Pick the character whose style you like the most and roll with it. If you think DH characters are so much better, roll a DH character for your RT game. *shrugs*

Oh, and I screwed up, my RT character is actually a Void Master as well, not an Arch-Militant. Sadly, my group has been pausing for quite some time (the date is currently clashing with our ongoing Dragon Age P&P; I guess we will have to finish that campaign first before continueing RT, of which we only played two sessions so far), so I forgot that minor detail.

Just an opinion: Why should RT characters more powerful than DH characters? Especially if the 'power' here is combat prowess or skill or talent.

Maybe it is just me, but what I have in mind is, RT characters are not 'powerful' enough than DH characters. But they have the freedom to decide their faith. I always thought DH characters as specialized special agents; yes they can have multitude of personas, but still they must bow to and obey many figures. RT characters does not necessarily bow to them; it's their own choice to choose the path (and the consequences). And RT characters are sometimes relied too much to their minions.. umm.. crews... that they become weaker (not improving greatly).

I believe it's more of roleplaying choices though; and yes such roleplaying choices are not 'supported' by RAW in this game.

Anyways, for Command and Charm skill, somehow I'm quite sure it is easy for RT characters to obtain them at 1st rank by RAW. Unfortunately I do not know about DH characters (do they also got them easily).

And of course, the RT-only Commerce skill is great as well. Plus, the PF thing. I'd assume the DH characters do not have access to PF. Unless of course, the GM permits. Dont really know about Ascension though, but I believe it's a totally different level.

But these are just my opinions, sorry if I'm not giving good advices or anything; just want to share an opinion of mine.

Lynata said:

Per your own admittance any normal advance (command) can be obtained for the most part through an origin option or via elite advance. For argument sake elite advances and origin options don't really paint an accurate picture of what a character is or should be capable of.

When I look at an advance table for a guardsman and see command at rank5 3,000 xp, and look at my arch-militant and see command at rank 3 another 7k experience points away I take issue with the "rank and file" guardsman being a better leader than my Master-at-Arms who's responsible for leading the Lord Captain's troops. (This isn't the case as I elite advanced it, but I shouldn't have had to if it is generally assumed to be part of the player's role.)

Though you imply rogue traders should be leaders of men not active participants.

I also think you're being obtuse. The words trader maybe in the title but a large section of the game is devoted to combat and to dismiss the difference between the capabilities of the two borders on the absurd. In one breath you say they may be individually "better" and then call them "rank and file" in the next. Once you form a coherent opinion I will value it, but implying I am being one-sided by presenting fact is an insult.

The career specials see RT pg. 72 are the only "abilities" that are unique to them i.e. rogue traders and some of those like the Missionary's aren't even unique at all. The Sororita example I gave illustrates this point as they too begin play with the pure faith talent there is nothing unique there. You even went on to say the missionary has access to a slew of skills and is a "jack of all trades". Again are his skills going to save him from a bolt to the head when the assassin can make a called shot at extreme range with no penalty? Rapid reaction would. Too bad he doesn't have access to it in his advance scheme though a cleric does.

Further more you continually mention reroll abilities that are in no way limited to Rogue Traders most all the talents in Rogue Trader are inherited directly from Dark Heresy.

I would have expected an open-minded person to say I see your point. Those unique starting abilities are minor, uneven when compared to one another, and generally situational at best. Hell, some of 'em aren't even unique.

As for the weapon class specialziation.

• +2 init; lighting reflexes, +ABx2 to init roll applies to all initiative checks regardless (typically more than +2)
• +2 damage; crushing blow/mighty shot, again all weapons melee/ranged
• +10 hit; weapon quality/scopes, 350 xp in BS/WS advances with that 5k xp DH characters actually get to spend.

All of these talents and more are available to a class like the assassin spending 5k xp compared to an Arch-Militant who spent 500.

As for what type of Sororita it doesn't matter but for giggles roll a missionary rank 1 rogue trader choose your origin path and spend your 500xp.

Then roll a Sororita. Background: Schola Progenium use the same stat rolls (they both roll 2d10) then roll a divination, and start spending your 5000 experience points.

If you don't see an obvious difference in capabilities between the two, or that of any two other similar characters I don't think you will ever understand the issue.

As for the relative capabilities of RT vs DH. I do find myself favoring DH characters within a RT setting to those native to the system.

The relative power level of the characters is eluded to by the mechanics and fluff. DH character stats are avg 2d10 +20 while RT are 2d10 +25. Rogue traders are typically found working for themselves with lots of power the members of the retinue are relative equals rather than operating under the scrutiny of a benefactor like in Dark Heresy.

Warfare can and does take place on a larger scale with the Rogue Traders eventually commanding legions of troops. The hiccup is they are supposed to be the best of the best the retinue is an elite ensemble. Which if you say starting out they are equal to a DH character having spent 5000 experience in advances in my book they better sure as hell live up to the hype.

Just to clarify your Weapon Specialization: Those bonuses are in addition to any talents. So the difference between an AM and a Guardsman with relevant talents is that the AM will outstrip the Guardsman after further leveling.

RT characters are inherently better on virtually every level, compared rank 1 to rank 1 with DH, and even things like their Mutation tables are dramatically better. Decrying benefits as "situational" is silly, the whole point of the Career Path (Class) based system is that each path excels during certain situations, and the RT Specials complement this well. A RT is supposed to be a masterful leader of men, bringing the best out of everyone around him and driving his men and Officers on to greater and greater deeds. Well, every round, whoever is with him and doing the most important things gets a +10 to it. Combined with the Lord Captain ship role ability (allows the RT to extend this boost to anyone on his Ship!) this could well be the most powerful ability in the book.

Why doesn't an AM start with command? Simple. They are supposed to be the RT's bodyguard and elite trooper. If you decide to powergame a little (I'm guilty of this as often as the next person) and pick all combat-boosting background paths, then that's all you'll be good at. Then, when it comes time to command the troops and you lack the skill, don't decry the Career path for not having the skill until later - you could have taken it but your background doesn't support it, so it'll take some time watching your Lord Captain handle the men and picking up the finer points of authority before he can buy the skill at rank 3.

One last big comment on the fact that RT characters are supposed to be 5000 xp is to say this represents, in a big way, the basic stat differences. A DH char is supposed to spend the majority of that on Advances, and looking at, say, the Guardsman, just advancing each Characteristic by 5 costs 2550 xp. Now in addition, take into account the various background options you can buy that boost stats by additional amounts, and you start going into Intermediate or even Trained advances to keep up. After that, your experience could well be used up buying proficiency talents and enough skills to make yourself useful, and if you decided to go for a combat char you'd be worthless at anything else. And this way you wind up with, generally speaking, a balanced RT character.

The downside to this model is the powergamers who say "Well i don't need fellowship or intelligence, I'm just going to max out BS and take all the ranged Talents!" are not restricted at all, which i believe is a fatal flaw made by their GM. Use the common sense factor rather then the "I could make a total bad ass" factor.

Telosse wrote: "Maybe it is just me, but what I have in mind is, RT characters are not 'powerful' enough than DH characters. But they have the freedom to decide their faith. I always thought DH characters as specialized special agents; yes they can have multitude of personas, but still they must bow to and obey many figures."

Of course such differentiations only exist in the appropriate campaigns and not, for example, if you would take a DH character and play him in a Rogue Trader game. From that perspective, I can understand the idea behind these concerns, though I still do not agree about their validity.

Like you, I tend to think it's a matter of roleplaying choices.

NGL wrote: "Per your own admittance any normal advance (command) can be obtained for the most part through an origin option or via elite advance. For argument sake elite advances and origin options don't really paint an accurate picture of what a character is or should be capable of."

What? Of course Origin packages paint an accurate picture of what a character should be capable of. Origins define what he did in the past. If a character didn't have a chance to pick up Command, why exactly should he start with it?

If you want Command on Rank 1, select the appropriate Origin and roll with it, like I did for my VM.

NGL said:

If your facts are gathered purely by looking at what makes DH careers better than RT careers, but dismissing anything of the opposite, then that is one-sided. And I have a coherent opinion: I thought that it was quite clear from my post that these terms are not at all mutually ex

A veteran soldier will likely be a better shot than an officer, that doesn't change that the former is rank and file, whilst the latter is the leader.

NGL said:

You're complaining about many RT abilities only being situational and then go on how badly you want a talent which is only useful when the party gets ambushed? Okay...

And if you really think that a Missionary should be a better fighter than a Battle Sister, you're doing something wrong, sorry. They excel in other areas, which I have already named.

NGL said:

Just because people disagree with an assessment of yours doesn't automatically make them wrong or close-minded, y'know.

NGL said:

I am under the impression that you are less looking for a discussion and more about ranting about what you think is wrong. Hey, nothing wrong with that, I am guilty of doing so from time to time as well. Yet, in the end, there's no real point in it. If you think DH characters are so much more awesome, roll one and have fun. I really can't add anything else to it. I'll just continue to have fun with my Void Master, which I would not want to trade for any DH character in his game.

Also, what BangBangTequila said. And I'm sorry that we don't seem to "click" or if my previous posts were coming across as somewhat aggressive - it was not intentional.

PS: Curses, this forum software must have been developed by Tzeentchian cultists. :/

BangBangTequila said:

I get some people make statements without doing the research or taking into account game rules. If you have a house rule in effect that lets you ignore rank progression like I have seen some mention then yeah it makes a huge difference, but if you look at the RAW anyone saying a RT character has an advantage over a DH character they don't have over one another is being dense.

Roll the characters and I am not even saying take only combat skills. I am saying take anything but don't dismiss stuff out of hand if you haven't actually bothered to investigate the issue.

There are those who have and they have responded seeing the same glaring issues. Had FFG said RT and DH are not compatible the arguement would have ended there but they didn't. If they had laid out some actual rules that put them on equal footing it would have ended but again they didn't. They said a rank 1 rogue trader is equivalant to a 5000 xp dark heresy character that's Rank 6 for those who don't know. I didn't make that up its in the book, and the only foreseeable "reason" the rogue trader is said to start at 5000 xp.

You are right, if you compare 500xp to 5000xp there is a huge difference finally you see the point, but are to dense to apply it in reverse which is exactly what FFG would have you do. Yeah, that is the point of the whole debacle, and no that arch-militant will never outstrip that guardsman as long as the guardsman has 5k experience on him.

In the future try reading the entire thread. If you had you might have been able to respond intelligently. I really don't know.

Your what a DH character is supposed to due is interesting because I don't see my guardsman having much need for all those stat boosts assuming he rolled well enough; its not power gaming its fact.

Roll 2d10x9 add 25 to each then roll 2d10x9 again add 20 to each. Odds are your numbers probably look alot alike some higher some lower, but basically the same. By that token it is cheaper to buy +20 in a skill then advance something by 20 points. Its the power gamers as you put it that waste xp boosting both stats (which gets expensive) and skills and pickup the talented talent.

Also, I am not too sure mutations are worth mentioning as anything significant will bare the mark of chaos and get you ventilated in a by the book campaign.

Again if you house ruled mutations as being ok that makes a difference. Hell, we got an explorator that wants to report our lord captain for tech-heresy cause he didn't perform the ritual of activation properly before activating a device. We also have a missionary aching to get his hands on a mutie just to work off some steam in the emperor's name. Pretty sure your raging 500 xp mutant isn't going to get far in a campaign like that.

Also, I like the way you say you could buy for xp all 500 of it your RT gets at character creation origin path options that boost stats to unreachable levels compared to a DH character. Yeah you bought them. There are origin path choices that cost nothing and provide benefits the designers deemed worthy of having spent 4500xp. That raging mutant power gamer you are quoting... his days are numbered unless he has an explanation that the gm deems fitting for survival where the DH character doesn't have to justify a thing.

Just encase anyone missed it the thread is about Balancing Dark Heresy Characters within a Rogue Trader Campaign.

It is not about hey they don't need to be balanced cause the rogue trader career allows the player to add +10 to someone's roll as a free action. Well a missionary can't do that either and you don't see me complaining. A missionary also can't reroll all failed piloting tests while in a small craft. Just like a rogue trader doesn't get mechanicus implants.

There are traits and abilities that make classes unique, but then there are a slew of advances that are open to anyone at the right time for the right price. The issue isn't that dh characters get something that rt characters don't its comparatively that they get it too soon and too cheap.

This is the last ill fated argument of dh are rank and file rt are leaders post I will respond to in this thread while I can't control what others post that's not what its about. Besides no one provided an adequate enough response to change my mind. Elite advances and origin options do not make an archetype or career advancement table what it is not.

RT characters are inherently better on virtually every level, compared rank 1 to rank 1 with DH, and even things like their Mutation tables are dramatically better.

You obviously havent been RTFT.

At rank 1 a RT career is 5k xp compared to a DH career. So thats about a Rank 5 DH career vs a Rank 1 RT career. ANY Rank 5 DH career will kick the living hell out of any RT Rank 1 Career ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Equal XP, unequal abilties.

If you think failures end up leading as a matter of course I hate to disappoint you dubya.

Any Rank 1 RT with ten thousand crew and troopers is dogmeat versus a single Rank 5 run of the mill Assassin or Psyker. He won't even know hes dead until she taps him on the shoulder, if shes that polite.

There are too many factors to consider here... but here is a quick recap of starting diferences from memory alone:

DH: 2D10 + 20 on each stat, 400xp starting.

RT 2D10 + 25 on each stat, 5000xp starting. +45 characteristic points than DH + one special ability

DW 2D10 + 30 on each star, 13000 xp starting. +90/+45 characteristic points than DH/RT + 2 unnatural traits + "unattainable gear"

Starting packages are also very diverse with DH toons starting with few skills, RT a lot more and DW beeing a full fledged advanced toon at creation.

So for me the difference seems to stem from advancement costs, especially regarding DH toons. That is not balanced or even supposed to be since they want 4 separate book lines.

Saying that DW charactes are more powerfull than RT and they in turn are more powerfull than DH falls short when DH can go Soritas ( mini-marine ) or even Inquisitor ( They guy who males his own rules ) and I'm not even thinking of a RT as he is the guy with the SPACESHIP.

So trying to focus on making them work together without beeing Godzilla vs Hello Kitty, I'd like to support the solution given here of going DH up to 4500xp and then RT with the adjustments presented. If someone would want to go on as a DH toon, redo the advance tables using RT prices, rough but should work ok IMO. Don't mess with space marines, they should be top of the line ALWAYS.

isidro said:

The question on whether some careers are mechanically unbalanced in relationship to others is more interesting, though I maintain that this is largely a background matter. Marines will always be a bit tougher than normal humans, and I guess we'd all be irritated would that not be the case in the P&P. Similarly, it makes sense for me that most RT careers could be better leaders or explorers, but fall a bit shorter in individual combat than most DH careers. Because RT careers have their own troops who do it for them, or at least support them.

That's not to deny the possibility that there can be some "oddities" that don't quite fit, even keeping the aforementioned differences in mind. DW in particular was obviously designed with more "heroic" combat in mind, utilizing some special mechanics and buffed stats, and some people have already compared it to Exalted. DH and RT may differ from each other due to a somewhat similar change of scope, though I continue to believe that crossovers are much easier here and significant differences are the result of individual careers, not the entire system. This "issue" already exists in the respective games themselves (just take a look at Ascension) and is not limited to crossovers. That said, I also do not believe it has to have an ill effect on the campaign or the players, as long as they are able to represent their respective role correctly. YMMV.