signoftheserpent said:

D&D on the other hand is not nearly so simple to do this for. The fact that everything has a special power (and they are essential to how the game works) and everything is geared around balancing things (rather than going "ok, how would such and such a thing be represented in the world" and then working it out). D&D needs things like Monster Manuals because you can't just go "Well this should be good at shooting so should have BS 40+, its fast so agility 40+, but they are weedy so they should have a toughness of less than 30". Realistically all 3 of the D&D core books are essential purchases. Creatures Anathema is not. For Dark Heresy you are provided with loads of write ups in the core book of various humans (the main foe in Dark Heresy) and some creatures and deamons. Certainly enough to be going on with and to demonstrate how most other enemies should be built. The only thing that was lacking were representative write ups of the big alien races, and yes there was a demand for them. The later books that provided them have since provided a framework, but even then it wouldn't have been too hard to make them without it. The main thing to ponder is what stats they should get as "Unnatural Characteristics", and even then there haven't been any I can remember surprising me.

As far as Orks being in CA: Orks are present everywhere. They are the single widest occurring alien in the galaxy. They were about the only alien of the big races to be guarunteed to have a presence in the official setting (the Calixis Sector). Necrons are not yet known. Tau and Kroot are at the other end of the galaxy (barring the small number of kroot that have since been said to have leaked through the gate). Eldar... well they featured, and frankly dark eldar would not be hard to extrapolate from that.

Now, I will accept the Enemies section in the DW rulebook was a bit sparse, giving about a page to every alien entry, but they gave an example of every level of enemy for the three forces they looked into (covering all the necessary bases for the Tau. Easy enough to work everything else out from what they gave there) giving some guidance on what "troops", "elites" and "masters" look like. Basically they are the guide to creating your own forces. You have a write up for Chaos Space Marines, and rank and file traitor guardsmen and cultists. Ok, they may be short on daemons but then they are not exactly common.

The Tau were never "goodytwoshoes" even with the original background. They were dynamic, optimistic and " good" in comparison to the Imperium and much of the rest of the galaxy. They were always aggressively expansionist. Yes, they would be happy to use diplomatic means to expand, and they didn't exterminate you solely for not being blue but they still wanted your territory and stuff (and believed it was theirs by right). They basically behaved like the European powers in the 19th century, a state which is much frowned upon nowadays (and they have a caste system!). The fact that such a power comes across as "pure as the driven snow" enhances the idea of what 40k is: ie the ultimate crapsack universe. Making them "grimdark" as the latest codex did just makes them... blah. They lost much of their distinctiveness.

Agreed. Short of running a stream of pre-gens straight from a book without reading them first, all GMing takes a bit of time, effort, and extrapolation. WFRP and the 40k RPG lines are blissfully easily to stat for in comparison to many other games, which is perhaps why I really can't see the issue with statting aliens, as it's (barring pykers) literally a five-minute job.

borithan said:

Or indeed the America of the 21C...

Nah... Tau are nicer than that.

I stand by my criticisms of the game; it's what compelled me to give up on RT. I think they are valid points even though I have zero influence over FFG's decision making or influence with GW.

That said, and weighing it all up, I have decided to buy Deathwatch. Hopefully I won't regret it, but such are the choices we make.

I guess I fail to see the issue as well. The setting the game is set in has 3 major Fronts. One against Tyranids, one against Tau, and one against Chaos. The Core rulebook contains the following Adversaries:

Chaos: Daemon Prince, Chaos Space Marine, Renegade Militia, Chaos Heretic. Also includes rules for the 4 Marks of Chaos.

Tau: Tau Commander (Crisis Suit), Stealth Suit, Gun Drones, Tau Fire Warriors

Tyranids: Hive Tyrant, Warriors, Hormagaunt, Termagaunt,

These are, basically, the core adversaries for each of the 3 fronts. I could maybe see Kroot, but really I think this is plenty for the core rulebook.

In fact, using just the Core Rulebook I've included Gargoyles (Hormagaunts with Flyer (12)), normal Crisis Suits (Master with half the wounds), Tervion (Hive Tyrant with reduced psychic powers), etc. with no issue. Though you could use just these and do fine.

Orks and Eldar are not major players in the setting, that is why they aren't included, plain and simple.

I am curious to know what your issues with Rogue Trader are though. IMHO it is the best of the 3 RPG's.

kenshin138 said:

I understand that FFG have chosen to remove orks and eldar from the Jericho Reach...in a game about the Ordos Xenos. That doesn't really make much sense surely? And even if it wasn't about the Deathwatch, surely these are 2 of the most iconic factions in the setting, why choose to just edit them out?

So this is a little off topic, but the first response to this post mentioned Eldar stats on the boards somewhere. I have been unable to find them. Could someone post a link please?

signoftheserpent said:

I won't disagree that it would be kind of nice to have a ton of antagonists predefined for me, but outside of D&D I can't think of a game system that actually delivers 101 monsters to the player. Most other games I've played, and play, require the GM to invent things if you've only purchased the main book- and some of them don't supply extra antagonists (save for specific NPCs) in supplements even, but that doesn't make them bad systems.

And come on, really, 'doesn't make much sense' to leave out Orks and Eldar? What happened to complaining about Chaos? It makes perfect sense as has been said 100 times on this board, they have limited time and space to make the book for the price they charge (which I still feel is on the high side, but I still buy them), and they have limitatons in the way you can make a unique and compelling backstory for the primary campaign. Chosing to leave them out of the book is a design decision and makes sense for the game they were creating- throwing in every enemy under the sun or the most overplayed ones isn't neccesarily the best call- it may be for some, but not for all. Just because your opinion and someone elses doesn't jive completely doesn't mean it's nonesense. Honestly, if they had made the book satisfy you, you'd see threads of fire all over the place going 'why did they include orks and eldar, I'm sick of orks and eldar, they're so over used!' For them it's a lose lose, and they just hope what they make appeals to enough people to keep them all gainfully employed.

For RT, though I've not played it all that much, I seem to recall there being some base starship rules in the core book- Jerichos, Vagabonds, Sword and Tempest Frigates, etc? Then they expanded it with Into The Storm and Battlefleed Koronus. However most of our adventures took place on foot, on a planet, starport, ship's bridge, etc. and not in a space fight so the starship rules were secondary anyhow. As for antagonists, I think you're thinking too much 'in the box' here; the game also has a bunch of human antagonists- every NPC entry, every class available to PCs, etc. are all valid antagonists. And for a GM who knows the system, that should be all you need to get up and running.

xandarian said:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=214&efcid=3&efidt=435365&efpag=0

And No-1 has them on his site (he wrote 'em): http://www.n01h3r3.com/

Charmander said:

Well there is the red headed step-child of gaming, RIFTS. Though it's more like 1001. lol

signoftheserpent said:

I call bull!

There are full rules for starships, how combat works, how flying around, and navigating warp space work. Weapons, various components, and 8 different hulls running from Transport all the way up to Cruiser (the Lunar class). Everything you need.

What is it going to take to please you!?

Blood Pact said:

that is not something that makes sense.

DW could have cut Extraction and included content similar to that fo the rest of the antagonist section and covered orks and eldar as well. Orks owuldn't really need much detail and an Eldar presence would be quite conceivably small, so you don't need more than a basic squad to start with anyway. Extraction could have been made free web content (if at all; i have no problem with including adventures, but not as such a priority).

There are ways and means.

Charmander said:

I've not read it, so I won't comment or draw conclusions about a game I haven't read.

Looks like instead of releasing free adventures with quick-play rules to drum up interest prior to release, FFG should have released a list of numbers and stats for things that would be completely useless without any rules. That would have been a brilliant business decision.

Charmander said:

signoftheserpent said:

Well, there are going to be orks in Mark of Xenos (fairly sure that has been confirmed) just they are not the main focus of the setting. Orks have already been reasonably well covered by RT and DH. Yes, does mean buying more books, but it also means that all books are a useful resource (but not essential) for players of all systems, as it is not purely repeating the same info again and again (unlike the main rules). The main focus should have been giving a decent core for the new focuses, ie Chaos armies (rather than cultists and the like that DH features heavily), the Tau (aside from pulse rifles no stats featured anywhere else) and the Tyranids (up until Deathwatch we only had the Lictor and the Genestealer). This is exactly what they did.

Eldar are also heavily featured in the RT stuff. I don't think they have been "removed" from Deathwatch, just they are not a major antagonist of the setting.

As far as cutting the intro adventure: For many people getting adventures is just as high (or even higher priority) than getting pre-written bad guys. It also helps to have an exemplar of a short adventure of a system, showing how things can be put together (and hopefully serving as an introduction to many of the rules concepts. Illumination in Dark Heresy is definitely written that way, deliberately bringing in all the major rules mechanics to introduce the players to them and give the GM a handle on how they work in real play). Now, by now I don't need this help but some people do (and occasionally I can appreciate something pre-written for me if I have been in a rush). Just putting them online is also not an answer as not everyone is really into the whole "going online to download content" thing. Probably all of us are, but then it is a fairly self selecting sample of people willing to post on an internet forum.

Could they have done a xenos compendium suitable for all three games before even RT was released? Simple answer is no. They didn't know what they would need, what "power level" the characters would be at (aside from the progression upwards with the 3 books), new talents and traits have been introduced across the series (and altered), and the rules have changed slightly across the series (Horde rules, for example... and without them many basic level aliens have no chance against Space Marines). And stats for many things would have been useless for the only game released at that point (Dark heresy). "When am I ever going to need a hive tyrant? My PCs are squishy humans who are meant to be investigating stuff, not fighting off tyranid hive fleets and they will last about 2 seconds against this thing."

God, Farseer Irriahael in those unofficial write ups is insane! OK, if you hit him he is not that impressive (TB 4 and 19 wounds... tiny number for a Master), but he dodges on a 91 or less and has a forcefield which protects him 73% of the time....

signoftheserpent said:

What doesn't make sense is that you expect the contents of Battlefleet Koronus to have been shoehorned in to the core book, because you're so ******* cheap and impossible to satisfy.

Nothing in BFK was necessary for you to have a good Rogue Trader game. You weren't suffering because you couldn't take heavy cruisers, and the components it added weren't so amazingly different that you were missing anything by not having them. The only reason BFK had so much about starships was because it could afford to be out "big book of space ships" anyway, since it lacked virtually any other crunch. Into the Storm had a bunch of alternate origin and career paths for people to take, not to mention Kroot and Orks.

So no, don't gimme any nonsense about there not being enough on starships in Rogue Trader.

Starships in RT, critters in all the cores... "I shouldn't be forced to buy more than 1 book"... Since it was brought up, let's look at WOTC and D&D 3.0/3.54.0...

In order to run the game, the GM has to buy at least the GM Guide and the Monster Manual, and someone (most likely the GM again) has to buy the Player Handbook... $120(us) for the base rules... $80(us) for just the PHB and GMG if the GM is willing to write up all new monsters for the game... I had a rather extensive collection and without even buying any adventures, I'm fairly certain I had well over a grand sunk in them....

For DW, DH, RT, each main book is $60(us), CA is $40(us). So either 120 vs 100 or 80 vs 60... All in all, I'm happy with how FFG is doing it... Granted, right now I have $370 invested personally lol

All in all, I think FFG is doing us much better than WOTC did for D&D

signoftheserpent said:

Successful troll is succesful.

Come on dude, really? You're going to stat out creatures for every goddamn critter in the universe and then screw yourself over when you come out with RT, Ascension, and DW which are scaled to different power levels? That's a brilliant plan.

@Blood Pact- If I recall though in the core book of Rifts most of the adversaries were also playable characters, save for a few monsters, no? Which would be much like DW. Now it separates once you get into supplements- but then again as Mayhem says, to buy the billion and one monsters for D&D t requires supplements as well.

Mayhem1703 said:

Speaking as somebody who doesn't like to buy anything other than a core rulebook I would observe that there are many, many, many games out there which *aren't* D&D and which are entirely playable out the box.

I don't actually have too much trouble with the choices they made with DW (although I *was* disappointed that Orks and Eldar weren't in it) but I don't intend to buy any supplements, which does mean I have to homebrew a lot. I'm cool with that, but I don't think D&D's publishing model is here or there.

I merely brought D&D up because it was mentioned earlier in the thread... And yes, there are many good games that have a good deal of critters and everything in them like Rifts... However, if you want all the new stuff they put out, like ninjas, extra GlitterBoys, etc., you're still in the boat of having to buy more supplements... Which for some, like Palladium, you're looking at what, about 100+ books anymore? lol

I can think of only a couple games that didn't have multiple books set up like that, with a bunch of supplements for this, that, and the other... And none seem to have left much of an impression or much legacy... To the point that I can't even think of any off-hand... Even the various incarnations of Star Trek and Star Wars, which are very ship and critter heavy systems, have several to many books on races/critters and ships... Not saying that there aren't good out of the box systems still alive, just that I can't think of any right now... And this from an almost 40 year old, gaming for about 30 years, who has over all that time dropped at least 6 or 7 grand on RPGs...

Would I love to see a compendium of all the rules, stats, etc., all in one book? heck yeah... But at the same time, that would, for most systems be one huge hacking book... One that you drop on your foot, you're on crutches for several months... And to put all that paper and ink together, that's gonna be one *EXPENSIVE* book....

Charmander said:

But that problem must already exist so I don't get your point. CA came out before Ascension and serves the same purpose. I don't recall seeing any rules for different power level characters, as per Ascension, there, so what's your point?

Mayhem1703 said:

Most games have supplements, but for many games supplements are unnecessary, rather than containing (arguably) core concepts like major antagonist stats and vehicle rules.

Call of Cthulhu's supplements are almost entirely adventures, Ars Magica supplements are mostly optional extras and I never had a problem running without them, Nobilis has no supplements to my knowledge, heck even most White Wolf games run fine out the box (although I suppose you could argue that the Core WoD + Fatsplat model requires you to buy multiple books).

There's a big difference between having supplements and *requiring* supplements to be playable. I'm not sure Deathwatch actually *does* require supplements to play but a lot of people have suggested that Rites of Battle is more or less mandatory.

Reagarding CA and later publications:

In this case I agree, I found it odd too that FFG did not develop the DW core rules so that they were compatible with the prior publications. But I discussed that extensively in another thread.

Ultimately there is to say that the rules have been set now and all this "could have" and "would have" grumbling will achieve nothing at all. Looking at the length of the thread, I guess we had had an in-depth treatment of the whole matter so the pros and cons are clear now. Either you buy the books or you don't, that's the choice you have.

What supplement, if any, covers Tau Ethereals?

Arkhan said:

So the Eldar from CA are not scaled to suit DW level characters using these rules?

Well basically you have to tweak and upgrade most of the enemies (including Eldar and Orks) in the CA book in order to make their threat-level fit the fluff. Without they would be too weak compared to the W40K background.

But as I said, there has already been a huge discussion about that, me arguing that FFG could have prevented that by designing space marines to be compatible, but the majority of users who posted in that thread disagreed with me there.

If you're interested, this is the thread, which conveniently also features stats for Orks and Eldar that have been player-tweaked to work with DW

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=214&efcid=3&efidt=435365