guest469 said:

How universal can a value be between species? Do dolphins and lions crave the same things we do?

guest469 said:

Who said it was evil?

My point is that it's not as incidental as you suggested. A Fire Caste Warrior can only ever be a soldier, by birth with no options or opportunities for any mobility except within that role. It defines how the Tau regard an individual's place in society - that they have their defined role, and they can never be anything else. It's no different to the "know thy place" attitudes of the Imperium, except that some people in the Imperium do escape that defined role (Inquisitors and Rogue Traders being common examples)... it's rare, but not unheard of, while being physically impossible amongst the Tau.

It's a big deal, rather than just something to be dismissed as a quaint call-back to their past...

guest469 said:

Some, but not much - it's not a particularly long distance from one to the other.

The Imperium practices wars of xenocide because human contact with peaceful Xenos civilisations is vastly outnumbered by hostile contact with them. Tens of thousands of years of encountering alien races and finding out that they're violent and hostile will shape a civilisation's outlook on things.

In the grand scheme of things, the Tau got lucky by encountering several species that could be negotiated with during their early forays into interstellar space.

guest469 said:

When your ideology requires the extinction of all non-human sapient life, then it doesn't stop being an ideological war - it's not like the Imperium doesn't recruit or expand, it simply doesn't do so with anyone that isn't human (for a given value of human - a variety of near-human species, such as Ogryns and Ratlings - are included).

When you're recruiting someone to join your cause, you never tell them that they'll be a subjugated population... its common sense. Recruiting by telling people about the bad things is self-defeating, so every recruitment drive will be candy-coated in some way.

That, and because we almost never see those who encounter the Tau and disagree with their philosophy...

There must be something amiss with Tau society, given that the first thing that Farsight did when freed from the oversight of the Ethereals, he fled the Empire and struck out on his own.

But I suppose that the idea of the Tau being anything less than shining paragons of goodness and light is abhorrent to you, judging by your posts in this thread...

Berengario said:

The Tau leaders aren't looking for the 'Good' option, when it comes to the decisions they make. Furthermore, the option that benefits the Greater Good doesn't always mean it's going to be good for small groups, or individuals. That phrase "Greater Good" could easily be swapped out with "The needs of the Many, outweigh the needs of the Few". That is why forced sterilizations, mind control, and disapeering people in the middle of the night are all perfectly acceptable things for the Tau to do. You're looking at them like the Tau just did them for ***** and giggles, as opposed to a pragmatic decision made by the ruling Ethereals.

A few dissidents trying to whip up the populace? Make the ringleaders of protests and demontrations disapeer in the middle of the night. It's more than just a few malcontents, and whole populations who are giving you trouble? Sterilize them, in a few decades the problem will sort itself out. The issue isn't quite that serious? Well why not just help these poor misguided souls out and help enlighten them to the benefits of the Greater Good. Look how helpful and cooperative the relationship with the Vespid has become, once the leaders were suitably 'convinced'.

See? All perfectly reasonable decisions, under the right circumstances.

As for point #4, that's not quite correct. The Tau will anihilate the population of a planet if they think it would be more trouble than its worth trying to integrate them. And then of course, there's the whole issue of them 'integrating' populations that didn't want to join the Tau Empire.

Unusualsuspect said:

Like the above, that's not quite right. Taros III wasn't an ally of the Tau in the strictest sense. It was a close trading partner, certainly, and the Tau were using that relationship as a way of getting their foot in the door, so that they could later annex the world. When the Imperium began to take interest, and they were actually asked for aide by the Government, that's when they used the situation as an opportunity to wage a military campaign.

In fact, I heartily suggest you read the book again, as it makes it quite clear that the Tau had earmarked Taros III for expansion from the begining, and that their diplomatic overtures were made because it was decided that a military campaign would be too costly. This wasn't anything like a case of the big mean Imperium of Man coming along to make a mess of a friendly business relationship between two neighbors.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I give up.

bogi_khaosa said:

Just as a point of historical fact, the Soviet government contained many many people who were not of Russian ethnicity or from Russia. Mikoyan was Armenian, Khruschev was from Ukraine (although ethnic Russian), Kaganovich was Jewish, STALIN and Beria were Georgian and Stalin spoke Russian with a thick accent. They weren't like Kroot.

Point taken! When I wrote the post, I was actually thinking of the Soviet Union, not Soviet Russia. I messed up the terms.

Whilst the Soviet Union was pretty "equalizing" to its members, there were a lot of sattelite states in Eastern Europe whose governments retained nominal indepencence, but were effectively controlled by Moscow. It's probably not the best example to describe Tau-Non-Tau relationships (given that they would live much closer together and likely share an official level of governmental leadership), but should suffice.

I have the weirdest image in my mind of Stalin as a Kroot.

Blood Pact said:

It has been a while since I've read it, but though I got some details and semantics wrong (an in-essence allience was overreaching, though I did get the revelation of xenos-trade correct), I do think my main point from that example is extant - The Tau are not going to advertise their presence on a IoM planet that isn't officially within their borders.

Also, according to Doombringer, one of the most respected Tau Fluff Gurus formerly at Tau Online and now at Second Sphere, the Tau Empire is:

Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils.

Curious how he came to that answer? Check out javascript:void(0);/*1303076800046*/, 3 posts down.

Xenology was not always as expensive as it is now.

Anyways, the sources I base my darker version of the Tau upon are as Lynata (I think) pointed out, not official GW material and as such you may choose whether or not to use it.

I like my Tau naive, aggressive and 1984-ish. Makes them quite interesting in my mind

Still the Tau are one of those races that you either love or hate. Personally I find the "good guys" version of the Tau boring and as such I modify them.

I agre though that the Tau are a ruthless and insidious threat to any they encounter simply because they are willing to use creative strategy to colonize others. Sterilization to break resistance - check, mind control the hive leaders - check.

It is obvious that the inquisition need to employ some exterminatus on the core Tau worlds

N0-1_H3r3 said:

TUNA!

That was a silly question...

Storhamster said:

No, Lynata just has funny opinions about what is and isn't official GW material.

GW has to vet everything that goes in to this game, especially when it comes to making new stuff. And the Tau are hardly sunshine and fluffy bunnies, especially since the whole Vespid brainwashing helmets thing actually came from the Codex (so the evidence is there, even if you're going to follow Lynata's skewed logic).

And as a sidenote that risks dragging us down an altogether unwelcome road, I've never really considered the Tau to be Space Commies either. It's just that, well... most Americans don't really have a clue what communism/socialism is really like, they just know it's EVIL! The spectre of the cold war is a hard one to banish, and the reason why the whole friendship with the Russians didn't happen after the Soviet Union fell.

C'est la vie.

Hey look, they're arguing about the Tau over here too

You know Eugenics was really big in the mid 20th centruy and everyone was down with it until the Germans industrialized it. Then suddenly everyone decided it was a bad plan. At least publicly. Things like that can be prettied up and covered up, but deep down inside it's still pretty terrible.

If the game wasn't so blatantly open with the Human Empire's cruelty, you could paint them as sunshine as well- the actions the Empire takes, they feel, are in the best interest of the human race. Enforcement of an Imperial cult and loyalty to the empire, culling of psykers, enacting a tithe to defend the Empire at large. Without the unification of the human race, it would be destroyed. It's for the greater good...of humanity.

It's not that the Tau are worse than humanity, but calling them the 'good guys' seems off. The tau ask you to join and if you go 'no, we're cool just hanging out by ourselves' and they shoot the crap out of you.

As ot the OP, I suspect their motivation may be with the best intentions. The Etherials may think that through their methods, however distasteful they may be, they're doing the universe a favor. Think of the colonial era, there's some examples of human society making moves on other territory and doing things they think is for the local population's betterment, even if it's actually an attrocity.

Earlier posters have compared the Tau to the Culture from the Iain Banks novels: I agree there are similarities, but I think the Culture is actually a far older and better informed civilisation (from memory the Culture's about 12,000 years old compared to the Tau's 2,000 years). The Culture knows what it's doing, and while it certainly manipulates less advanced civilisations, it steers clear of outright conquest.

The Tau's empire building always reminds me more of the British Empire in the Victorian era. Both are characterised by an overwhelming optimistic self confidence, by a belief that they are morally in the right. There is the same patronising paternalism, which creates the unfortunate impression that both empires are partly founded on outright racism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Brit, and I'm a patriotic one too; but I think it's fair to say that the modern commonwealth is a very different creature to the 19th century British Empire. The British Empire in the Victorian era made a big show of bringing light and civilisation across the globe, while simultaneously sending gunboats to blow anyone who opposed them to smithereens. Very much like the Tau. The British Empire creatued universities and educational institutions throughout their sphere of influence...but wasn't exactly a shining example of egalitarianism when it came to allowing citizens from outside the UK to acheive high office within the Empire.

I don't believe that the Tau are cynical, manipulative bastards, but I do believe that their idealism and lack of understanding about the wider universe can lead them to act in what appears to be a very cynical way. They will certainly allow humans and Kroot to work within their empire, but very much on the Tau's terms and very much in a supporting capacity. They're broadly benevolent, but one imagines that in practice, when they're opposed by alien forces, this "benevolence" could still allow for things like forced sterilisation, labour camps, alien ghettoes, brainwashing etc etc. All in the Greater Good, of course.

I think the term you are looking for is Kipling's "White Man's Burden". Today, we call it Enlightened Self-Interest.

Afterall, The Greater Good means the exactly same thing as The Lesser Evil.

I can just imagine the tea drinking, pith helmeted Tau explorer and his Kroot man-servant encountering superstitious lasgun waving human savages who worship some tribal "skyfather" that supposedly protects them from the so-called "evil spirits". All mumbo jumbo nonsense of course.

guest469 said:

Take up the Tau's great burden--
Send forth the best of your caste--
Go bind your children to exile
To serve the Empire vast;
To wait in heavy armour,
On Kroot, tempestuous and wild--
And new conquered, sullen Humans,
Half-animal and half-child.

...and so on. Yes, it's the same kind of patronising casual racism. It's actually exactly the sort of condescending attitude that would drive your average citizen of the Imperium insane with hatred.

Lightbringer said:

Which means that the Imperial authorities must approve of the Tau´s attitude. They do like hatred and approve of insanity.

Blood Pact said:

Not really, I'm just following what has been stated by several GW officials and licensee authors.

You know, I used to believe the same as you, but after lots of discussions here and the whole pointing out of contradictions I've just done some research and dug up these statements that changed my mind. Ironically, an interview linked by N0-1-H3R3 only strenghtened this point of view. "Prioritizing" studio material over licensee stuff, however, created a much less contradictory setting - and whilst I would greatly appreciate a greater level of continuity (such as in SW) I would not want any licensee to go and override/retcon GW stuff just like that, so I've grown to live with the official statements. You should, too.

To quote myself from an earlier post:

George Mann, head of GW Publishing, seems to think differently. Gav Thorpe also had a blog entry where he talked about the various "interpretations" of the setting and had drawn a clear line between BL and studio works: http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Here's something interesting, too; this very RPG franchise gets mentioned as well:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=206072

Scroll to post #5 - though the entire thread there seems worthwhile reading and somewhat eye-opening for all of us (yes, myself included).

Blood Pact said:

Here I agree partially. I do think that Tau society can be described as a form of communism, simply due to its strong focus on what is commonly called the Greater Good and everybody doing his part for it. Denying that GW has strongly pulled from this cliché - as they did in many cases elsewhere - would be wrong.

At the same time I, too, think that it would be "too easy" to call EVIL on it. Neither should this term be applied automatically to socialist/communist forms of government nor the Tau, for whilst I would say that there are "shades of grey" within Tau doctrine, the Greater Good is still an inherently benevolent society that ultimately aims to protect its people with way more care than the Imperium of Man currently does, even if some Septs may employ less pleasant measures from time to time. The thing to remember is that there is not a single country in our real world that does not have some skeletons in its closet, regardless of its form of government - take GLADIO, for example.

What remains the main difference between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire is not that both do evil stuff for what they say is necessary, but that the majority of Imperial Commanders seems interested only in their own power and wellbeing, whilst I do think that the Tau Ethereals truly believe in the responsibility they were given. The "grey shades" within the Tau Empire thus seem more clinical and careful and less about violent oppression or genocide (the IoM way). For some, it makes them look more benevolent / less evil, whilst for others it makes them just more insidious. I believe that it is this controversy that makes them interesting.

"Communism," whether in its ancient or modern forms -- ancient Christian communities, Plato's Republic, Israeli kibbutzim, the former Soviet countries in theory -- refers to communal ownership of property. That's it. "Putting the good of the community first" is different.

bogi_khaosa said:

I don't know a lot about them but what i do know sounds like that have more of a totalitarian governemnt (whether communist or not).

From The Free Dictionary

totalitarianism (total'itâr`e?niz?m), a modern autocratic government in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens. A totalitarian government seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population, erasing the distinction between state and society. The citizen's duty to the state becomes the primary concern of the community, and the goal of the state is the replacement of existing society with a perfect society.

Graver said: