Tau religion and motivations

By Berengario, in Dark Heresy

In one of the future adventures I’m planning to have my group crash land on a planet inhabithed by humans but belonging to the Tau (Lexicanum stating they’re the «Gue’vesa Auxiliaries»): I’d wish to have everything looking «normal» on the planet except for small, undiscernable discrepancies, the biggest being the lack of any imperial symbols, shrines and temples.

I think one of the ways the acolytes could discover this planet’s treason is by their forms of cult: the temple being dedicated to the «Greater Good» instead of the Emperor; or some kind of liturgy differing completely from the Imperial Creed; or the humans paying honour to the inhabitants of a citadel whose denizens are the Tau indeed.
Yet as far as I’ve understood the «Greater Good» is more of a philosophy than a religion, therefore I can’t figure they build temples or follow other forms of collective cult, relying instead on meditation and other private-level practices. As you see, I’m quite ignorant on the topic: please, could somebody summarize the principles of Tau religion?

On the other side, I read their society is based on castes: I figure then that all the non-Tau races are on the hierarchy’s lowest steps, little more than chainless slaves. What does being on the higher steps mean? Are they godlike, allowed to do whatever they want with the lower classes (Lexicanum: «Their power over the Tau is such that an Ethereal could tell a Tau to die and that Tau would do so quickly and gladly»)? Or are they just ascetic leaders really caring for their people?

And what are their motivations as for their empire’s expansion? Are they moved only by the spreading of the «Greater Good»? It looks like every other race’s target in the setting is to annihilate the others: are the Tau this different they only wish to assimilate them?

Before inventing on my own I’d wish to adhere at least to the basis of a race’s concept.

Thank you for any help.

I suppose the perception of Tau society having a philosophy rather than a religion is a correct one, yet there can be similarities - just look at the somewhat cult-like aspects of states with a large budget for propaganda such as Soviet Russia (though also prevalent in the USA during certain eras). Signs can include an almost semi-religious reverence of certain principles and the expectation from the populace to participate in state-organized events, or the construction of buildings as monuments rather than an actively constructive purpose.

Now, I'm not saying that the humans should have a picture of some Ethereal in every home, but there could indeed be posters on the walls of the city, Sept iconography and colours on the buildings (replacing the Aquila), slogans affixed over the streets or the public voxnet spouting propaganda for the Greater Good - all depending on how much you want to delve into the cliché and how obvious you want to make the differences. You could also describe the area as much, much cleaner than a normal Imperial settlement with less trash and rubble lying around and no gangers or homeless on the streets - whilst at the same time making this fact, which on first glance seems so much better than the dirt- and plague-ridden Imperial cities, seem somewhat creepy ... for the population numbers seem much, much smaller than normal, the streets almost entirely devoid of people (at least on the outskirts). Then you could go on describing how uniform even the civilians look in terms of clothes or haircuts etc... Think a crossover between Half Life 2 and Equilibrium.

Combine.jpg

You'll find some more inspirational Tau propaganda here: http://forums.tauonline.org/enclave-talk/28059-tau-propaganda-come-get-some.html

Obviously it's your setting and you can run things how you like, but generally I'd avoid making the Tau into another sinister Cult - the Imperium is full of Cults and the Tau are very different to Chaos or Genestealers (or regular heretics). Indeed I believe it's mentioned in several places that humans under the Tau Empire are actually permitted to carry on worshiping the Emperor (since Tau philosophy very much *isn't* a religion it doesn't actually conflict with Emperor-worship at all).

Similarly, from my general understanding of the Tau, they don't go in for skulking and hiding, they're almost naively open and honest about things (one Ethereal was killed because he tried to hold a feast in honour of a Necron Tomb Fleet after said fleet saved the Tau from a Tyrannid attack) - as far as the Tau are concerned, if a human planet wishes to be assimilated into the Empire, there'd be no reason to hide it. Which means in a Tau-run human planet there would be fairly open signs of Tau leadership.

I *would* expect there to be a lot of Tau propaganda everywhere, but I'd expect it to be ubiquitous, not something locked away in temples and behind closed doors. I'd expect quite a lot of Tau iconography on public buildings, possibly Tau military encampments, and "For the Greater Good" all over the place.

As Lynata points out, what can make the Tau creepy is the fact that their society *looks* really utopian - their cities are bright and clean, they have shiny tech and shiny armour - but in reality it's based on this creepy totalitarian caste system.

Chastity said:

Obviously it's your setting and you can run things how you like, but generally I'd avoid making the Tau into another sinister Cult - the Imperium is full of Cults and the Tau are very different to Chaos or Genestealers (or regular heretics). Indeed I believe it's mentioned in several places that humans under the Tau Empire are actually permitted to carry on worshiping the Emperor (since Tau philosophy very much *isn't* a religion it doesn't actually conflict with Emperor-worship at all).

Similarly, from my general understanding of the Tau, they don't go in for skulking and hiding, they're almost naively open and honest about things (one Ethereal was killed because he tried to hold a feast in honour of a Necron Tomb Fleet after said fleet saved the Tau from a Tyrannid attack) - as far as the Tau are concerned, if a human planet wishes to be assimilated into the Empire, there'd be no reason to hide it. Which means in a Tau-run human planet there would be fairly open signs of Tau leadership.

I *would* expect there to be a lot of Tau propaganda everywhere, but I'd expect it to be ubiquitous, not something locked away in temples and behind closed doors. I'd expect quite a lot of Tau iconography on public buildings, possibly Tau military encampments, and "For the Greater Good" all over the place.

As Lynata points out, what can make the Tau creepy is the fact that their society *looks* really utopian - their cities are bright and clean, they have shiny tech and shiny armour - but in reality it's based on this creepy totalitarian caste system.

The Tau are, generally speaking, seemingly genuinely inclined towards positive assumptions about their fellow universal inhabitants... Including previously unknown forces that seemed to be life-saving allies in the previous battle. For many instances, this can grant the Tau an upper hand - they can tie up Imperium forces with deception and espionage, they can avoid getting vaped by Eldar, they can even gain new allies for the Greater Good (like Vespid or Kroot). Sometimes, you end up suckerpunched... but in the end, is not the occasional loss of even an Ethereal in the process of bringing entire planets, even entire races under the wing of the Tau Empire for, well, the Greater Good?

Here's the thing, though - you won't see 'em making too many mistakes twice. The first time the Tau encountered the Imperium, they didn't realize how xenophobic a culture could be. Expecting such a dynamic Empire (relatively, at least in universe) to be naive about official Imperial attitudes towards those who truck with Xenos, unless this is literally the Tau's first encounters with the Imperium beaurocracy...

Edit: Is my Tau Army bias showing?

Unusualsuspect said:

Chastity said:

Edit: Is my Tau Army bias showing?

Indeed it is gui%C3%B1o.gif

And they are constantly making the same mistake twice, they assume that everyone else is peaceful and wish to negotiate with their imperialistic society.

However, GW seems to love their little, blue space-commies (no insult intended) and let them get away with just about anything.

I do approve of their recent developments however. With forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means.

Suddenly they seem very much like the thought-police of 1984.

Tau in a DH game?

I dislike the portrayal of Tau with totalitarian themes. How could the Tau possibly be worse than the Imperium at totalitarianism? The entire point of the Imperium is to be a parody of every totalitarian regime in the history of mankind and some people want to trump that?

I would play up the Tau as an ideological force, and play down the racial/caste group angle. Partly because we despise "race-war" themes at our table. Sure the IoM is racist, that doesn't mean the GM has to justify it for them.

I prefer the Tau to be Liberal Imperialists in the same category as the Iain Bank's Culture and the Federation in Star Trek. Theoretically peaceful and tolerant but every bit as much hypocritical and deceitful when it suits them. Their equivalent antagonists ought to be the Tau version of Section31 or Special Circumstance.

The Tau do not consider themselves as "religious" even if they have an absolute pure faith in the Greater Good. They are as close to the Imperial Truth as any xeno could be (suspiciously so in fact). Tau have no objections to Imperial or Chaos religions. Their attitude to religion is more of a patronizing tolerance for the cultural practises of their ethnic minorities.

>I do approve of their recent developments however. With forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means.

>Suddenly they seem very much like the thought-police of 1984.

Urgh. That bull is Matt Ward level.

guest469 said:

Urgh. That bull is Matt Ward level.

Check out the background on the vespids (I think that´s the name of the most recent addition to the Tau "Empire") and xenology.

That is just two of the sources of course happy.gif

In the Dark future of the 41st Millennium there is only War. No room for happy, space utopia.

Thank you all for your replies! The adventure’s plot is ripening!

Please, allow me to summarize what I’ve understood and correct me if I’m wrong:

1) The Tau don’t impose their philosophy as a «state religion» nor prevent their vassals from practising any cults of their own: this way, the human auxiliaries may preserve their faith in the Emperor.
I already see the planet’s humans still calling on the Emperor («By the Emperor!», «Emperor save us!» and such) yet at the same time practising a deformed (heretical in the Imperium’s point of view) form of Imperial Creed in which the Emperor himself is just a Greater Good’s prophet, not mankind’s god and protector but only an extraordinary man.

2) The planet’s environment is almost untouched, the towns are clean and everything is in order but there’s no real «life»: I can figure a town where everything is grey and dull, an utilitarian town whose proportions and design take inspiration from some illuminist (or foregoing) «perfect city» drawing. There has to be a «people’s house» too and people have to spend the holidays together while pretending to be happy and glad to pass the time with their townsmen.
The propaganda posters Lynata pointed me to were a great help in figuring out what their society could look like.

3) It looks like the Tau leaders are genuinely good, namely they lean towards what they think is a good option or the best one in the Greater Good’s perspective. Yet this seems to clash with what Storhamster says about «forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means»: are the Tau leaders caring for their people or just despots?

4) Tau don’t want the annihilation of the other races: they only want them to accept the Greater Good and to integrate in their empire. Therefore, the Tau soldiers could be just a small force in the human town, officially «protecting» the citizens from any danger but actually garrisoning it to be sure that everything goes fine and that every citizen acts as a good citizen.
They could even offer my group’s characters full citizenship should they submit to the Greater Good instead of fighting.

5) Tau’s attitude towards their empire’s expansion is a «small steps» policy: little but sure gains, they never bite off more than they can chew and, before passing on, they want to be sure they gained full control over their new acquisitions.

6) The assimilated races aren’t considered «lesser races»: they are perfectly integrated in the Tau society (perhaps even in the castes?) and asked to give the Greater Good the best they can offer.

Is there something wrong or missing?

Storhamster said:

Unusualsuspect said:

Chastity said:

Edit: Is my Tau Army bias showing?

Indeed it is gui%C3%B1o.gif

And they are constantly making the same mistake twice, they assume that everyone else is peaceful and wish to negotiate with their imperialistic society.

However, GW seems to love their little, blue space-commies (no insult intended) and let them get away with just about anything.

I do approve of their recent developments however. With forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means.

Suddenly they seem very much like the thought-police of 1984.

The constant appeals to peace, negotiations, celebration of allies, and similar "naive" moves strike me as less "The same mistake twice" as "Something that has had both success and failure in the past", given their SUCCESSFUL diplomacy when it comes to the Nicassar, the Kroot, the Vespid (who, admittedly, may very have had their leaders controlled by Tau "Communication" Helms - For the Greater Good, of course), the Bentusi, and plenty of Humans as well!

Again, the Tau can seem naive (and in fact, when the warp storms first lifted and allowed the Tau to explore, they WERE naive - they literally had no clue what the entire rest of the galaxy was like) by sending envoys to Tyranids and celebrating "savior" Necron forces. They tend to learn their mistakes the hard way - aformentioned tyranid envoy and necron celebration rank high up there.

...But they're not stupid. While the Tau's first Imperium contact showed their ignorance of IoM's xenophobia, they're not going to continue to antagonize their xenophobic neighbor more than necessary. Take a look at Imperial Armour III: The Taros Campaign, from Forge World. Taros III, the world the war is set on, is in essence a world in alliance with the Tau... and not a SINGLE "For the Greater Good!" appeared in the city. It took an experienced (Terran, I think) beaurocrat to physically come to Taros and make a multi-month assessment. ONLY THEN was it clear that the Governor was trading some of the planet's material wealth to those neighboring "filthy xenos".

The fact of the matter is that the Tau are NOW aware that IoM is xenophobic, and would thus be very unlikely to do as much cultural and iconic redecoration on a world that IoM doesn't know has allied with it.

Now, if this were an actual breach of Tau Airspace (Spacespace?) and landing the party on an explicitly Tau-controlled Human world (Gue'vesa are martial forces, like "Fire Warrior" or "Stingwing"), well, propaganda it up. Make the Greater Good, and the bastardized cult of the Emperor, primary iconography, change the phrases for the peon humans a bit, etc. But on an unofficial Tau alliance in IoM territory? Expect the regular peons to still worship the Imperium and its Emperor as if nothing had happened, with the only noticable changes happening in the upper eschalon of society (where phrases might change, there might be sudden material wealth gain, the Imperial tax isn't being payed or being lowered by "bad production", etc.

Storhamster said:

guest469 said:

Urgh. That bull is Matt Ward level.

Check out the background on the vespids (I think that´s the name of the most recent addition to the Tau "Empire") and xenology.

That is just two of the sources of course happy.gif

In the Dark future of the 41st Millennium there is only War. No room for happy, space utopia.

>Check out the background on the vespids (I think that´s the name of the most recent addition to the Tau "Empire") and xenology.

Where did you buy your copy of Xenology? The price listed on Amazon for this book is very expensive.

>That is just two of the sources of course

Which is completely contrary to the fluff in the first codex but that is academic. We all run our games our own way. If you prefer, the Chaos can be the freedom fighters against the Evil Empire.

>In the Dark future of the 41st Millennium there is only War. No room for happy, space utopia.

I disagree. The oppressive nightmare in the 40k millieu is mostly self enacted by humans. Be it the Old Night, the Horus Heresy or the Vandiran Apostasy. It's was human hands, human ambition and human flaws that were and remain the architects of human misery.

If my players encountered the Tau, I will have them as happy space utopians, if only to let them see all that humanity has lost.

Unusualsuspect said:

Here's the thing, though - you won't see 'em making too many mistakes twice. The first time the Tau encountered the Imperium, they didn't realize how xenophobic a culture could be. Expecting such a dynamic Empire (relatively, at least in universe) to be naive about official Imperial attitudes towards those who truck with Xenos, unless this is literally the Tau's first encounters with the Imperium beaurocracy...

Edit: Is my Tau Army bias showing?

I wasn't suggesting the Tau would be naive about official Imperial attitudes, just that they wouldn't respond to that by skulking around like a Genestealer cult, but instead they'd respond by saying "sorry, this is our planet now and if you want it back you'll have to deal with the Fire Caste".

guest469 said:

I dislike the portrayal of Tau with totalitarian themes. How could the Tau possibly be worse than the Imperium at totalitarianism? The entire point of the Imperium is to be a parody of every totalitarian regime in the history of mankind and some people want to trump that?

Nope, but a lot of people felt that having a race of "good guy" aliens undercut a whole facet of the setting (although arguably the Eldar were pretty close to that anyway). And the Empire actually *isn't* totalitarian. It's *theocratic* but it actually allows its subjects an awful lot of freedom - part of the reason that Chaos and Genestealer Cults are such a threat is that Imperial culture is actually extremely pluralistic - the Imperium is extremely oppressive in some ways, but extremely diverse in others.

By contrast the Tau have a genuinely *totalitarian* society. Every Tau is supposed to surrender everything they are to the collectivist notion of the Greater Good. There's no room in their society for freedom or even individuality. That's far scarier in a lot of ways than the Imperium which, while it looks *cosmetically* like Nazi Germany meets the Spanish Inquisition, it's actually much *better* than most real world dictatorships.

guest469 said:

>I do approve of their recent developments however. With forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means.

>Suddenly they seem very much like the thought-police of 1984.

Urgh. That bull is Matt Ward level.

No, the bull is this idea that they're somehow supposed to be a bunch of little blue goodguy underdogs, who would love to have everyone live in peaceful harmony...

But that's where you run in to the brick wall. They're the ones who decide what the Greater Good gets to be. And the whole peace and harmony thing only goes so far as you're under their rule, and doesn't account for having peaceful relations with a neighboring empire. Afterall, if two such groups can get along so well, why don't they just join together, under the enlightened leadership of the Ethereal Caste? When it comes right down to it, they're kinda like the pigs in Animal Farm. Everyone is equal under the Greater Good... but some are more equal.

You don't get to pick and choose, and pretend that the Tau are somehow so much better, without being called out for it. Because that's total crap.

Unusualsuspect said:

Now, if this were an actual breach of Tau Airspace (Spacespace?) and landing the party on an explicitly Tau-controlled Human world (Gue'vesa are martial forces, like "Fire Warrior" or "Stingwing"),

Actually, we've got no guarantees or indications that "Gue'vesa" are purely or primarily an armed force - the term "Gue'vesa" essentially just means "Human helper", with no inherent military implications, and humans seem to have an extremely minimal role in Tau warfare (they seem to appear primarily on worlds where humans are the dominant population in a role equivalent to the PDF forces on Imperial worlds) - and it seems as likely that "Gue'vesa" applies as readily to human industrial labourers or bureaucrats (who would aid the Earth and Water Caste, respectively) as to human soldiers.

Humans aren't like Kroot, whose primary contribution to the Tau Empire is a military one - humans aren't really that much more capable of waging war than the Tau on a strategic scale, and beyond a mass of expendable numbers, don't really add anything the Tau lack (remember, the Tau don't consider an inability in melee a deficiency, as they don't regard it as a worthwhile form of combat, and employ the Kroot as scouts first and foremost, rather than as assault troops).

To the matter at hand: IMO, the darkness of 40k is far more than merely the self-imposed horrors of humanity. The galaxy is a hostile and extremely dangerous place, and while the Tau may be idealists in theory, even they can't ignore that many species out there are innately and irredeemably hostile - Orks are not a species who can make a peaceful contribution to society, nor are the Tyranids, or the Necrons. Imperium is harsh, brutally indifferent to the plight of the individual, and hostile to anything and everything it perceives as a threat, which encompasses everything that isn't itself (a lesson taught by many long millennia of hostile contact with Xenos civilisations). The Eldar as a whole are malicious, cruel, sadistic beings whose collective psychological baggage brought about a societal apocalypse and whose opinions of every other species range from "vermin" to "useful pawns"... and that's before you reach the insidious nature of Chaos. Every major player on the galactic scale - a scale that the Tau have little to no true comprehension of - is fundamentally self-interested and hostile to everything else, and has been for countless thousands, and in some cases millions, of years.

The 41st Millennium is an age when fear, superstition and paranoia are the only sensible options... because there are dark gods and vile daemons that hunger for your annihilation, ancient civilisations that cannot die which promise oblivion at best and servitude at worst, and everyone else really is out to get you. That the Tau are turning to harsher methods of controlling Xenos populations under their rule (and, IMO, it's always been about whatever is best for the Tau, working from the same arrogant presumption of a manifest destiny to rule the galaxy that the Imperium has) merely demonstrates that they're starting to realise just how unashamedly hostile the galaxy is, and that they're starting to understand that nothing but a brutal death awaits them in the darkness between the stars.

In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, utopia doesn't end well. The Eldar had a utopian society that endured for countless millions of years, where no individual could want for anything and peace was universal because no outsiders could hope to challenge what the Eldar had built. The end result was the near-extinction of the entire Eldar species, a massive hole ripped in the fabric of the universe, and the birth of a Chaos God.

>But that's where you run in to the brick wall. They're the ones who decide what the Greater Good gets to be. And the whole peace and harmony thing only goes so far as you're under their rule, and doesn't account for having peaceful relations with a neighboring empire. Afterall, if two such groups can get along so well, why don't they just join together, under the enlightened leadership of the Ethereal Caste? When it comes right down to it, they're kinda like the pigs in Animal Farm. Everyone is equal under the Greater Good... but some are more equal.

I kind of agree with this. The Greater Good in my eyes represent what the Tau consider to be universal values like human rights, freedom or democracy today and the Tau are willing to go to war to assert these "universal values". Sound familiar? likewise, these universal values are not negotiable by outsiders. Inevitably they discover that good intentions aren't enough and not everyone wants freedom and democracy. Some are quite happy to cling on to medieval superstitious barbarism. Sound familiar?

I'm trying hard to make my point without inciting a political shitstorm, but the Tau are as much the good guys as any country that goes around bombing other countries can be. The path to hell being paved with good intentions. I don't consider the Tau to be wilfully evil but evil as a consequence of misguided belief and even benign intentions.

I'm not saying the Tau can't be the bad guys, just that they shouldn't be an entire race of saturday cartoon villains that make the bleedin Imperium of Man look like happy space utopians.

guest469 said:

I kind of agree with this. The Greater Good in my eyes represent what the Tau consider to be universal values like human rights, freedom or democracy today and the Tau are willing to go to war to assert these "universal values". Sound familiar? likewise, these universal values are not negotiable by outsiders. Inevitably they discover that good intentions aren't enough and not everyone wants freedom and democracy. Some are quite happy to cling on to medieval superstitious barbarism. Sound familiar?

Umm, I think you're making a false comparison here - ultimately there's a big difference between "universal values" like "human rights" and "universal values" like "a caste system where everybody does exactly what they're told for the good of the Empire".

You seem to be arguing because the Tau fight wars for ideological reasons, just as some modern democracies fight wars for ideological reasons, that therefore the Tau are just like a modern democracy. This is faulty logic.

There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the Tau are the good guys, except for the fact that they have the word "Good" in the name of their philosophy.

guest469 said:

I kind of agree with this. The Greater Good in my eyes represent what the Tau consider to be universal values like human rights, freedom or democracy today and the Tau are willing to go to war to assert these "universal values". Sound familiar? These universal values are not negotiable. Inevitably they discover that good intentions aren't enough and not everyone wants freedom and democracy. Some are quite happy to cling on to medieval superstitious barbarism. Sound familiar?

To a point... but then you start adding the complications caused by inter-species interactions. The first Tau Codex mentioned that the Tau regard the carnivorous habits of the Kroot with distaste and wish to expunge that trait from them. There is the suggestion that the use of Communion Helms to integrate the Vespid into the Empire is a form of mind control. The Tau aren't just sharing their values by force, they're set to stamp out anything that doesn't mesh with those values, right down to fundamental physiological imperatives.

guest469 said:

I'm trying hard to make my point without inciting a political shitstorm, but the Tau are as much the good guys as any country that goes around bombing other countries can be. The path to hell being paved with good intentions. I don't consider the Tau to be wilfully evil but evil as a consequence of misguided belief and even benign intentions.

Few factions are willfully evil, even in 40k. The Imperium is frequently portrayed as "the lesser of many evils", a realm of unending servitude in the name of preserving the existence of the human race against countless threats in a hostile galaxy. The Craftworld Eldar wage a continual war for survival against not just the horrors of the galaxy, but also against their own darkest impulses. The Orks are destructive and violent, but there is no hate or malice in their hearts. The Tyranids follow only the biological imperative to consume. Many who seek the power of Chaos are well-intentioned to begin with, and the Chaos Gods themselves are entities so far removed from our understanding that they cannot be defined by our definitions of good and evil.

guest469 said:

I'm not saying the Tau can't be the bad guys, just that they shouldn't be an entire race of saturday cartoon villains that make the bleedin Imperium of Man look like happy space utopians.

I don't think anyone is asking that the Tau be made that way, merely that their natures reflect the hostility of the galaxy and everything in it. The Tau, IMO, aren't cackling cartoon villains, but nor are they the one true hope for peace and unity in the galaxy... they're just as bad as the Imperium and the Eldar, just in different ways and with a much better PR department.

>caste system

How is this worse than the calcified social classes of the Imperium? How often does your underhive dreg get to rub shoulders with the worthies of the Spires? What is the Tau caste system? As I read it, it is a vestige of the old days when the Tau were divided into tribes. In GW fluff it was intended as an analogy to how the Ethereals ended ethno-nationalistic conflicts and brought everyone to work together in harmony.

>does exactly what they're told for the good of the Empire

This differs from your Imperial in what way? The Tau believe in it too. Perhaps as devoutly as a SoB might believe in the God-Emperor. If they believe hard enough, they might even be right.

>You seem to be arguing because the Tau fight wars for ideological reasons, just as some modern democracies fight wars for ideological reasons, that therefore the Tau are just like a modern democracy. This is faulty logic.

No I'm saying that the Tau have benign intentions even though their foreign policy is imperialistic as everyone else.

>There is no reason whatsoever to believe that the Tau are the good guys, except for the fact that they have the word "Good" in the name of their philosophy.

Look, the Tau will be as good or evil as your GM wants them to be. I just prefer to frame them as a mirror image to what humanity used to be before the Old Night.

>nor are they the one true hope for peace and unity in the galaxy

Funny thing that Eldrad didn't agree. Check the quote by Glebriwyn Tithrandil in the new Tau BFG rules. Of course, they could all be wrong and it turns out that the Tau are just perfidious commie aliens of no consequence and that humanity is as ever the race of destiny whom the fate of the galaxy rests. bostezo.gif

Chastity said:

By contrast the Tau have a genuinely *totalitarian* society. Every Tau is supposed to surrender everything they are to the collectivist notion of the Greater Good. There's no room in their society for freedom or even individuality. That's far scarier in a lot of ways than the Imperium which, while it looks *cosmetically* like Nazi Germany meets the Spanish Inquisition, it's actually much *better* than most real world dictatorships.

Right.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

guest469 said:

How is this worse than the calcified social classes of the Imperium? How often does your underhive dreg get to rub shoulders with the worthies of the Spires? What is the Tau caste system? As I read it, it is a vestige of the old days when the Tau were divided into tribes. In GW fluff it was intended as an analogy to how the Ethereals ended ethno-nationalistic conflicts and brought everyone to work together in harmony.

The Castes of the Tau are distinct sub-species whose strengths and inclinations are maintained through eugenics - breeding between castes is prohibited, after all.

guest469 said:

No I'm saying that the Tau have benign intentions even though their foreign policy is imperialistic as everyone else.

Benign intentions is all a matter of perspective - benign for whom?

The Tau are operating along exactly the same lines as the Imperium in terms of basic ideology - both societies believe that their species has a manifest and undeniable destiny to rule the galaxy.

I don't care how you play it, working under the premise that your species is the destined rulers of the galaxy skews things more than a little. The Tau believe that they will rule the galaxy. Not the Kroot, not the Vespid, not the Nicassar, nor humans, Demiurg or anyone else who may comprise the Tau Empire. Its their Empire, its their "Greater Good". Everyone else is just along for the ride.

Nobody is claiming that the Imperium is flawless, perfect or utopian. Nor is anybody claiming that the Tau are malicious cackling villains... but like it not, in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, even the so-called "Good Guys" are complete and utter self-serving ruthless bastards, simply through sheer necessity.

>benign for whom?

This is where universal values come in. Yeah, you can say it's hypocritical but you be surprised how many people cling on to them in real life. I don't begrudge the Tau for this naivety. Believing in values that we presume are "universal" irrespective of culture or religion doesn't make us evil. Starting wars for it may be wrong, but that doesn't mean we are monsters.

>The Castes of the Tau are distinct sub-species whose strengths and inclinations are maintained through eugenics - breeding between castes is prohibited, after all.

Which part of this is so evil?

>The Tau are operating along exactly the same lines as the Imperium in terms of basic ideology - both societies believe that their species has a manifest and undeniable destiny to rule the galaxy.

There is surely some difference between for-your-own-good-imperialism and galactic-genocide-imperialism. There is no moral-equivalence here.

>working under the premise that your species is the destined rulers of the galaxy skews things more than a little.

>The Tau believe that they will rule the galaxy

Not necessary their species but their ideology. The Tau identify by their ideology more than anything else, not race or caste.

It's the Imperium of Man fighting a RACE war.
The Tau are fighting an IDEOLOGICAL war.

This is how they get gue'la to defect. Not by the promise of third class citizenship or cheap trinkets but by the promise of a different way out of an eternity of war. This is why gue'la agents risk and sacrifice their lives to undermine Imperial authority, because they've found something they believe in.

Berengario said:

Please, allow me to summarize what I’ve understood and correct me if I’m wrong:

1) The Tau don’t impose their philosophy as a «state religion» nor prevent their vassals from practising any cults of their own: this way, the human auxiliaries may preserve their faith in the Emperor.

Personally, I don't see that happening, at least for the Imperial Cult. It's simply way too counter-productive to condone and promote faith in the leader of a foreign nation that wants to destroy you, especially when the tenets of the Imperial Creed include stuff like a supposed genetic supremacy of mankind or the extreme xenophoby - things that, of course, clash with the multi-race idea of the Tau Empire. And how would strong believers react when they get attacked from those supposedly working or even speaking directly for the Emperor such as the Astartes, the Sororitas or Ministorum Missionaries? Way too dangerous.

What I could see is either a full ban on Imperial faith, or an attempt to undermine and control/manipulate it, to change its tenets to something more in line with the Greater Good. Considering how the Missionarius Galaxia and the Orders Sabine take a native religion and simply put the Emperor on top of it, I could see the Tau trying to "revert" this process, disconnecting the Emperor/IoM from the local populace's belief and have them return to their "old ways". This could also include an attempt to insert the core principles of the Greater Good into the local belief, either directly or in such a way that its doctrines are supported by the religion.

Perhaps this can also serve as inspiration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Modern_history

Berengario said:

3) It looks like the Tau leaders are genuinely good, namely they lean towards what they think is a good option or the best one in the Greater Good’s perspective. Yet this seems to clash with what Storhamster says about «forced sterilizations, mind control and the fact that the Etherals might control the entire population by chemical (pheromonical) means»: are the Tau leaders caring for their people or just despots?

Personally, I believe that the Tau leaders could be described as "benevolent dictators" - in spite of what children get taught in many supposedly democratic nations, despotism or dictatorship is not an inherently "evil" form of government, it simply depends on the person(s) in power. I could see the Tau Empire having safeguards in place to prevent excessive abuse, though this is of course mere speculation. I do think that the Tau leadership as a whole is genuinely interested in the well-being of their people, though it is not impossible that there are a few "black sheep" here and there. In a way, it's not that dissimilar from the Imperium, though corruption and misuse of power run far, far more rampant there.

The important thing is that this does not contradict excessive measures that some might see as draconic IF they are beneficial to the Greater Good. For example, forced (or rather covert) sterilization could be seen as a means to "make room" for Tau citizens already born by preventing the birth of others. An additional beneficial side-effect is that this would lower the numbers of potential future rebels against the "main race" of the Tau Empire, depending on how well integrated the subjugated non-Tau populace actually is.

A further thing to remember is that this stuff has not been written by GW itself and as such is not part of Studio canon. Both Xenology as well as Dawn of War - the origins of the aforementioned measures - have been written by outside license-holders, and as such are not quite on the same "level" as GW material. Xenology in particular contradicts a lot of stuff released elsewhere, the question of "hooves or feet" just being one of them. Though it still is a cool book and I greatly recommend it as inspirational material.
Anyways, the bottom line is that you are free to choose for yourself how you want to portray the Tau Empire. Personally, whilst these "sinister aspects" of the Tau are "less official", I've adopted them simply because they make the Tau more interesting and seem to fit into the overall grimdark setting of 40k. I'm not sure if these things are directly contradicted by the Codex, though - that is a question that a Tau player should answer.

Berengario said:

6) The assimilated races aren’t considered «lesser races»: they are perfectly integrated in the Tau society (perhaps even in the castes?) and asked to give the Greater Good the best they can offer.

As long as I do not see a Human/Kroot/Vespid Commander of the Tau Empire, I will consider them to be regarded as lesser races. Not really looked down upon, but simply not having the same chances of rising to a position of power. Perhaps similar to how Soviet Russia treated its client states. The "little brother" who needs guidance. Guidance by the Ethereals. Because the Etherals know best, so it's all for the Greater Good.

An integrated Human colony world could perhaps have a Human governor, but in the end he is a figurehead who has to defer to the local Ethereal when it comes to truly important decisions and as such acts more like an ambassador or go-between to his people. In military matters, Gue'vesa could perhaps rise to the positions of squad leaders, leading their fellow Human auxiliaries in combat, but ultimately subjected to Tau Fire Caste officers. This is in line with the representation of Tau forces in the tabletop.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliaries_Roman_military

Lynata said:

As long as I do not see a Human/Kroot/Vespid Commander of the Tau Empire, I will consider them to be regarded as lesser races. Not really looked down upon, but simply not having the same chances of rising to a position of power. Perhaps similar to how Soviet Russia treated its client states. The "little brother" who needs guidance. Guidance by the Ethereals. Because the Etherals know best, so it's all for the Greater Good.

Just as a point of historical fact, the Soviet government contained many many people who were not of Russian ethnicity or from Russia. Mikoyan was Armenian, Khruschev was from Ukraine (although ethnic Russian), Kaganovich was Jewish, STALIN and Beria were Georgian and Stalin spoke Russian with a thick accent. They weren't like Kroot. gui%C3%B1o.gif