Hello guys, we are starting up a DW game and I have been trolling the boards for a while. We also have some girl players in our group and I decided to use the Rites of Battle to make up a female chapter for our game rather than having to deal with the Ascension rules. I figured i would share it for anyone interested. It may not be a perfect write up but it serves for our group. I pretty much just ninja'd some psychic powers from other chapters and renamed them for fluffs sake.

javascript:void(0);/*1302883621772*/ Heres the Chapter

javascript:void(0);/*1302883784192*/ Homeworld

I found a nice write up for a planet in a blog online so I also ninja'd that and changed it a bit to suit my needs, I cannot take credit for the planet.

You might need to create a free acccount to access, I have never used this file sharing site before. Hopefully this makes some of you looking for female marines life a tad easier.

This is my 1st attempt creating a chapter, and we havent played DH in a long time.

What, Sisters of Battle not good enough? In all seriousness, if you want lady marines, you can make lady marines. But this may be seen as an actual trolling, the word you were looking for is "lurking"

Godspeed.

Edit: I would suggest, however, this be one of the "deleted" chapters, rather than an altering of an existing chapter. Having someone mucking around with the geneseed is a bad idea. It was the Emperor's finest work, and took a long time to do, and he was Better Than You™. Having them be the remains of his pet project would be a much better idea, IMO.

Well i am guessing you didnt read it before passing judgement as it is not replacing any existing chapter.

It's not a question of replacing any existing chapter, just that by pure canon there aren't any female space marines.

For what it's worth I do think that's a kind of sexist element of canon (although I tend to stick by it because it's iconic which probably makes me kind of an apologist) but if you're going to ditch the "no female marines" rule I'd be inclined to just let your players play female marines of any chapter.

Also, are your female players really that uncomfortable with playing male characters?

Well, FD, you did say they were modified Storm Warden stock. That's why I mentioned it. Sounds like you're a little defensive.

Sorry didnt mean to sound curt.....I just wanted to use them as a succesor chapter to the Wardens, unsing thw Nemesis Incident as a good way to leave a mystery to their founding, or how it happened. I really did it since the girls will never play boys. Also the ascension rules would be hard as they rely on alot of us helping them along, and none of the guys have played ascension so it would be learning 2 things at once. It really is easier for us to have everyone using the same system and since Rites had the means to an end i worked em up.

it may not be for everyone, i dont expect all people to want a female chapter, but its a means to an end for us, and I saw other people looking for rules on this so I thought I would share.

Honestly, I am a bit of a fluff maniac, myself. I would call them Sisters of Battle, and let them use Marine rules, being whatever chapter/speciality they want.

Using Marine rules for SoB is definitely another way to go (somebody on another thread suggested that you could swap out Unnatural Stats for Faith powers, which strikes me as a good compromise), I mean most of the Marine mechanics work fine for Battle Sisters.

I do still suggest that it might be better to just lift the "no female marines" rule entirely, otherwise your female players are restricted to playing a single Chapter.

I personally don't like the idea of female Space Marines, just as I don't like the idea of male Sisters of Battle, but that's probably just me who likes tp play by the setting's rules as much as possible.

In regards to changing geneseed I see no problem with adding that to the fluff as long as it is remember that it is NOT considered ok. The moment the word gets out there will be a galaxy wide cry of "Heresy!" and lots of point fingers - followed by a seriously pissed off strike force coming to wipe them from existance.

I do however wish you good luck with it, and don't hesitate to come back and share any experience from this change to the setting.

Interesting note on their behavior, hating all mutants, when they themselves would be considered mutants by some (many). Though I noticed they're primarily Chaos focued based on their abilities, would it make more sense to have them hate chaos things (like Malleus) rather than mutants (like SoB and Hereticus)?

Is there anything in the codex astartes that talks about how much mechanization you're 'supposed' to do- how many support bikes are you 'allowed' to have in a given comapany? I ask because you note that they adhere strictly to the codex, but using the mobile doctrine may be a violation in some cases

You list the Inquisition as the Chapter Friend, yet they are outsiders to the Astartes- I'd consider working on some background here, why is the Inquisition interested in them, why do they befreind them. What do they hope to gain by having them around?

One thing I think would be worth further documenting is their interaction with other sects of the Empire- how do they work with the guard, other astartes, what do chapters (outside of SW) really think of them? How do they get along in the DW? Do they get special dispensation for their armor and its modifications- who makes it? What's with the focus on Agility Buffs (just curious here) and have you considered implicatons of combining that with the Agility based PA (Mk 6 IIRC)? How do the SW feel about having women be a successor chapter- is there animosity? What motivated the High Lords of Terra to approve this endeavor (as they clear the creation of all successor chapters)?

The issue is, fluff wise, all these questons come up- though if you're not a fluff maniac/nazi then it doesn't really matter, but if you want it to blend I'd suggest thinking about the implications beyond 'they have to struggle to prove themselves' in order to make it fit more...dramatically.

As an alternative:

If you want to play with the fluff history, two of the Primarchs are completely unknown... Their gene seed sealed in a vault on Terra. If you like, have one or both these Primarchs female, their geneseed keyed to female physiology. Who knows why the Emperor decided not to create these legions? It might have simply been a societial/political decision - human societies (at the time) were in general simply too chauvinist to accept female Legions.

Of course the Imperium has moved on from this now. Some element in the Imperium discovers this female gene seed and realises that they have two legions of perfectly good gene seed. Perhaps even the Primarchs are held in statis... In any case a faction decide to create a new Chapter of this stock as a test.

Perhaps the female gene seed is very different - many of the organs different. Imo there is a lot of potential here - beyond simply female space marines.

Hah, I did something very similar to OP.

I wanted the female PC to use the same basic ruleset as the Marines so I tried to create a few fluffier concepts to pick from.

The basic idea is that the female PC seconded to serve Deathwatch are heroines and extraordinary figures of legend, who can easily look a Space Marine in the eye as equals.

+ Archaeotech Interface Rig : counts as Unnatural Toughness x2. Can use Astartes scaled armour and weapons without penalties.
- No Astartes implants.

Fenrisian Valkyrie : count as Space Wolf Apothecary with Power Spear
The Valkyries are a ferocious maiden cult from the inhospitable land of Fenris who haunt battlefields for dying men. When men fall in battle, they choose the bravest as candidates for the Space Wolves or deliver them to the Emperor. When Space Wolves fall in battle, it is the Valkyries who deliver them swiftly to the Emperor's side and recover their geneseed for the next generation of Wolves.

Queen of Battle : count as Ultramarine (+5 to Fel/Int) Tactical Marine with Talented Command
She is has lead armies and conquered entire worlds in the name of the God Emperor. This character concept was ripped from the Artesia comics minus the witchcraft.

Sororitas Palatine : count as Black Templar Assault Marine with Rosarius

Ordos Xenos Inquisitor : count as Dark Angel Librarian with Inquisition Rosette

Fresnel said:

I presented this concept years ago when working on a Space Marine conversion when DH was first released. Although the fluff states that the gene-seed is keyed to male anatomy, supposedly originally created from the Emperor's own DNA, there is nothing in the implants mechanics that states the genetics must by Y-chromosome keyed. If the the gene-seed is is male, then it MUST contain both X and Y chromosomal bits. Therefore, it is theoretically possible from the limited fluff science that the gene-coded information could be X-chromosomally linked and hence work in both males and females. The interesting part of genetics would be that female space marine gene-seed would technical be more stable to mutations simply by the redundancy of two X-chromosomes vs. an X and an a Y-chromosome pairing.

In the rough draft I did, I decreased the overall strength for female space marines. It is a function of of muscular physiology (roughly speaking males have a higher density of muscle fibers and fibers with greater thickness - you can find studies that show this even in elite bodybuilding men and women). On the flip side, I increased the female space marines overall toughness as a function of endurance to stress, pain thresholds, genetic stability (every noticed that woman outlive men by 7 or so years on average, and lets not forget childbirth!) All other characteristics I left equal.

Maybe as stated, the real reason is psychosocial... men as a generalization do not see women fighting in combat for them as natural. Lots of the fluff shows Space Marines as knightly orders, etc. which follow a code of honour; it isn't hard to see chivalry tied into that.

-Cynr

"So it comes that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer
With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her
Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands
To some God of abstract justice - which no woman understands.

And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him
Must command but may not govern; shall enthrall but not enslave him.
And She knows, because She warns him and Her instincts never fail,
That the female of Her species is more deadly than the male!"

-Rudyard Kipling

Cynr said:

Although I'm not opposed to the concept of female Astartes, I think your scientific justification is too open to criticism. Biology is very much more complex than X and Y chromosomes... Male and female humans have virtually the same genotype, its the expression of those genes into the phenotype that gives the various major and minor structural and behavioural differences.

From reading the fluff the main biological problem with implantation is rejection. Recruits are carefully screened and even then some fail the implantion process. Being female might increase the risk of organ rejection to unacceptable levels. Also the developmental changes of the implants go hand-in-hand (ideally) with adolescence. It appears to me that implants ride the wave of adolescence development - ampifying the male increases in muscle and bone grow.

The hormonal and physiological development is very different between males and females. You might imagine the any attempt to implant a female would need a very aggressive gender reassignment hormonal treatment, plus the removal of the overies. Essentially the end result would look male... This risks gender identity psychological problems.

So from my understanding of biology, the canon position that Astartes implants are male specific appears entirely plausable. Males may simply be the ideal gender for impantation - but why mess with success?

Having one or both the unknown Primarchs as female, solves this issue. Females would be the ideal gender for this gene seed.

The only "male specific" mention in the Index Astartes I article is "They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for need for tissue compatibility tests and physiological screening." (page 7) My biological sciences degree is a few years old but the term zygote is the initial cell formed usually from sexual reproduction (the union of two gametes or haploid cells, i.e. sperm and egg) which offers no logical explanation as to how it is "keyed" off of either sex and since it works with males it must contain both X & Y chromosomes (the factor that determines male from female genetic expression.) SIDE NOTE: Poor science research since what I read is the progenoids produce gene-seed zygotes, so is that asexual reproduction going on??

As to rejection, organ donation (just as second heart, lung etc.) is based on genetic compatibility not gender (although studies I looked at said about an increase rejection rate of 8-10% cross gender donation). Gender may only be a factor in determine the organ's size, hence its functional compatibility not its genetic compatibility. Looking over the list of implanted organs, I can't see where there would be a difference in male vs. female tissue types (which usually tend to be reproductive in nature and in effect.) You would NOT remove the ovaries because they produce testosterone, the principle anabolic steroid for muscle mass, etc.

As for hormones, the major difference in is the levels between males and females. It could be argued that women have a more complex hormonal system and hence the reason for "male only" are the "ideal gender" but this is a guess no better than saying that the Emperor chose men for chivalristic psychosocial reasons since the Emperor was a "He" in a patriarchial system.

Again, there is no scientific point as to why Space Marines can only be males except the fluff says so. The little bit of science they used doesn't support it. Rogue Trader 1st Ed was written in 1987(?) and it is my guess there "male only" line comes more from a the social image of women in the military, especially combat roles, than some real thought behind genetics. Keep in mind that the UK, where this IP was written, is like the US (or stricter?) where women in the military do not play forward combat roles. Even the Index Astartes I article was published in 2002 and think of just how much as changed with women in combat since then.

Again, it is a game and the GM rules. . . but the 2 missing Primarchs make an excellent source.

-Cynr

Chastity said:

Just want to correct something: Originally the "no female marines" rule was not sexism at all. In the very orginal form from the early days of all fluff (read Warhammer 40 000: Rogue Trader) Imperium took much inspiration from Catholic Church (with big guns thrown in). Thus, logically, Imperium had monks and nuns. The Warrior Monks were the Adeptus Astartes, the Warrior Nuns were the Adepta Sororitas. When seen against this background there is no sexism in it at all. Monks are not female and nuns are not male. Simple as that.

It was only in the later -dare I say "Black Library"- interpretations that the power balance shifted so that Warrior Monks became elevated to level of demigods while Warrior Nuns were pushed back to "just a mere human". In my opinion the right way to go about this is to restore the power balance by simply making Sisters equal to Brothers in power and ability. Unlike trying to introduce female monks and male nuns it isn't even against canon, its just a return to earlier interpretation of canon.

Well the first articles detailing the Marines genetic adaptations were published in White Dwarf AGES ago. And the Adepta Sororitas were basically a single picture in Rogue Trader, you didn't get an army list of any figures for them for years.

Of course this is all based on my now rather hazy memories, but you're looking at at least 10 years between 40K coming out and the Sisters of Battle having figures.

If you want female Space Marines knock youself out. Personally I'd just go with 14,000XP Soriatas using the Ascension rules (which I'll admit I've not got yet, sigh too much stuff, too little time and money).

scimon said:

RT didn't have rules for Sisters. They got their own Codex only after 2nd edition came out in 1997. However, in Rogue Trader the fluff was there and in RT days the Space Marine were something far less awesome than today. The change to Space Marine status came slowly, starting from 2nd edition Codex Ultramarines. However, its worth noting that as late as 2003 With Hunters codex Sisters were depicted pretty much as equal to Brothers. Sure Brothers had their acid fangs and whatnot, but still. The demigods agains normal humans is a very recent trend.

Polaria said:

The way I see it, is that the Table Top rules lagged the fluff. I have White Dwarf 98 on my shelf and space marines fluff reads as demigods vs normal humans. The rules to mirror this were not forthcoming until Deathwatch was published.

Polaria said:

Back when Space Marines smoked cigars and wore armour covered with graphitti like "KIL KIL KIL"?