1. Can you kill cards that you control but do not own (as military claim or deadly effect)? I assume yes

2. Considering the "honor guard" cards from the core set (that are put into play on control of another player, but change control to owner if they win a chalenge), if the other player wins a chalenge by defending it, but has less deadly caracters than the attacker, is he able to kill my honor guard before it changes control?

I assume it cant since the passive effect of the honor guard happens on the framework window that determines winners of chalenges, and the deadly effect happens in a framework similar to the renown framework, after the results are implemented.

1. Yes. Ownership of cards has little effect on the gameplay. It is mostly relevant when cards leave play. They always go to their owner's out of play area (discard pile, dead pile, hand, shadows, etc.) unless a card effect specifies otherwise. All things cost/claim/trigger-related ask only if you control the card.

2. Determining the winner of a challenge and settling claim are part of the same framework action window. As such, they both resolve before passives and responses can kick in. So I think if your opponent chooses for your card to die for claim or settling deadly, that card is moribund ("on the way out") before it changes control (I would assume the lasting effect that hangs over the card to check for its control-change condition behaves like a passive effect). It leaves play only at the end of the framework action window, so technically control does go to you for a brief moment, but since the card is already moribund, it leaves play shortly after.

Saturnine said:

So if the person you gave your Honor Guard to wins on defense, but has to kill a participating character for Deadly, the First Player will determine which passive ability (control change or Deadly) goes first.

ktom said:

Oh, interesting. I know Deadly is not part of claim, but I had assumed that Deadly still resolves before any other passive effects after the "award renown" framework action as a "quasi" framework action. This is good to know.

"Deadly is not part of claim. It happens as a passive effect after the challenge resolves - same as the control change.

So if the person you gave your Honor Guard to wins on defense, but has to kill a participating character for Deadly, the First Player will determine which passive ability (control change or Deadly) goes first."

I actually disagree with this.
The framework for challenge resolution is as follows:

1. Determine winner of
challenge
2. challenge result is
implemented
3. reward for unopposed
challenge is awarded
4. renown is awarded

The "honor guard" states that: After an opponent wins a challenge in which the Honor Guard participated, take control of the Honor Guard.

Well, the winner is determined on the first event of the framework, and the card abilitty seems to be a passive effect that happens on the "Determine winner of challenge" framework event, after the winner is determined (3. framework event resolves - determine winner / 4. Passive abilities, now triggered, are resolved - change control) .

On the other hand, deadly happens, according to the rulebook, "after the challenge resolves". So it should be a passive effect that only happens on the "passive effect window" of the "challenge result is implemented" framework event. (3. framework event resolves - challenge result is implemented - winner`s claim takes place / 4. Passive abilities, now triggered, are resolved - deadly kicks in).

So with this dissertation i come to the conclusion that the control change of the honor guard happens before the deadly effect and before any victory claim takes place. What do you guys think?

Kzar Otto said:

Remember that the basic framework action window works like this:

1. Initiate framework events
2. Save/cancel opportunity against framework events
3. Resolve framework events
4. Resolve passive abilities to anything in 1-3
5. Play Responses to anything in 1-4 (or earlier in 5)
6. Ends

Remember also that you cycle through Steps 1-3 for each framework event before ever moving on the Step 4

So according to the timing rules of the game, all 4 framework events must resolve completely before passives to any of them may initiate. So it doesn't matter that "determine the winner" happens before "challenge effects are implemented" in the framework events because passives to both of them are held until a common Step 4. They are both held until then, and then try to resolve at the same time. Because they try to resolve at the same time, they conflict. Since they conflict, the First Player determines the order.

It is a common mistake for players to try to cycle through steps 1-5 for each framework event individually, but the rules say that you only cycle through 1-3, then have a single steps 4-6 for all the framework events.

I stand corrected. The passive/response windows apply at the same time for all framework events indeed. There is an arrow that conects the step 3 to the step 1 on the framework action window that i overlooked. And is also well explained on the timing example on he faqs.