I thought the OP meant Ultramarines.

Charmander said:

Basically, people seem to think that because the Tau are only as bad as a normal real life facist dictatorship, it makes them way better than any other faction in 40K.

Also, what's being said about the Tau, in the Deathwatch fluff section, isn't written from an IC perspective. So there's no reason not to take it at face value. Especially since GW has to vet everything going in to the books.

Charmander said:

Being - at least according to what we know about them - less evil and sadistic than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States#Human_radiation_experiments

By those standards, the Tau are pretty much fantastic.

The Tau are 40k's attempt at good guys. I'm not sure that it works too well, as it's hard to be an interplanetary civilisation with guns without being a bit nasty, but the canon always tries to portray even the unpleasant Tau solutions as the least morally objectionable choice.

Siranui said:

Yeah, the juries out on them at the moment but IMHO they bring a number of elements to table that 40k was lacking before. Firstly they are a tech only science based army (with a tiny expection here and there) which gives it a dumbing ground for 'proper sci-fi' ideas, secondly because they are inclusive you can include multiple alien races which is great from a model standpoint and great for us RPers. Because of their liberal standpoint and science based tech they are actually the most relatable for us which is a first in sci-fi that I know of.

Siranui said:

Euhm they sterilize humans in special camps... They're just as 'bad' as the Empire. Their leaders use pheromones supposedly to mindcontrol their people and they kill of all those who do not become lesser citizens in their realm. In fact most species they keep around seem to be kept only because they serve a specific use or use them as fodder. Sure they're less 'honest' (sic) and direct than the Imperium but longterm they do the same thing purge and dominate. All are part of a greater machine and potentially free will may be even more irrelevant than in the Empire. Which is saying much.

In 40K I have yet to encounter any civilization or race that is pelasant, well intentioned and good. And so it should be. Like in r/l everyone is out for themselves.

Although the be fair the Empire wouldn't sterilise and release them to live out the rest of their lives in peace. They'd murder them and experiment upon them and build a monument to how great it was. I know what I'd consider the lesser evil.

And the Imperium doesn't need pheromones to control the masses. It uses good old tried and trusted religion. Works a treat ever time.

Siranui said:

And good doses of good old fashioned fear

Siranui said:

And of course, considering, the timescale of the background in general, if the entire population was sterilised the planet would be dead within a generation which is what 40 -50 years max on most Imperial worlds. A far cry from a steady decline.

Sounds like theres a method to the madness, for all we know they are stopping the stupid or weak from breeding... but more likely, seeing as they don't have a system to collect psykers and purge mutants, are breeding out the dangerous psyker and mutant genes that they can't control.

Except the Tau don't really understand psykers, and have no reason to hate mutants any more than they do normal humans.

Likewise, just who the hell gets to decide who's too stupid or weak to be allowed to breed? Take a moment to say that out loud, and you'll realise that that doesn't make it any better. Not that they're the targets of the forced sterilization anyway, it's anyone who doesn't like the Tau taking over their planet, but are still needed for the labour pool.

Blood Pact said:

There's a difference between fully understanding and observing trends.

They mention disidents being disapeared not about sterilisation, although obviously you would think it would be what they consider criminals or not matching whatever they consider non conforming to some human 'caste' they have imagined. To be honest at this point it's foolish to try to and guess the full motives of an alien civilisation.

For all we know they're doing the China thing and offering material returns in exchange for sterilisation in order to bring population down to a level that the planet is actually capable of sustaining. Which would be a pretty good thing to do.

The gue'la that don't end up "disappeared" have a long-term problem: they are ruled by aliens who do not share any bond of shared heritage. At least in the Imperium, you're facing a grim future with some possibility of furthering the cause of your own species. As part of the Tau Empire, you're dying for aliens who regard you as a lesser species and always will. The Imperium may be evil by our standards but consider the universe that spawned it. Crushing freedom of speech is essential when the wrong knowledge can literally swamp a world in daemons and the general population is too weak to know what's safe. Xenophobia is a perfectly understandable and sane response to the tides of hostile alien species. And the "friendly" ones? In the best case scenario, those aliens still occupy some of the relatively few habitable worlds in the galaxy and denying humanity resources it needs to fend off worse threats.

In short: the Imperium is the lesser of two evils here.

Decessor said:

+1; shooting unsanctioned psykers seems really mean at first until they open a portal to a greater daemon on accident (not that sanctioned psykers in DH don't have a good chance of doing this as well), and supressing knowledge sounds unjust unless reading a book makes you go insane and then kill your neighbors.

This doesn't make the Empire any 'better' but they justify their actions for the good of their race, just as the Tau do.

@Siranui: Well yeah, they could be trying to reduce population for the 'good of the planet' but really? Especially after the planet probably just went through a ravaging war where most of the local humans were killed or fled? Nothing suggests that purges or reduction of human population is anything awesome, or a real choice. Even if that's the truth, in a caste system it's really not about helping the planet, but about helping the upper caste members live better at the expense of lower caste members. That's how castes work- I don't think GW picked the term or the social structure of the Tau by accident, and their Asian influence just screams 'segregated social structure under the guise of the greater good'. But as always, defining 40k (especially alien intelligences) is a tricky beast

Although it probably varies amoungst the Tau I think there's a good chance that most of the Tau actually think they are doing the right thing by the Human populations albeit in a patronising, colonial, 'dumb savage' way.

As missguided as that sounds it's still infinately more mercy than the Imperium gives it's enemies (or it's own populations).

As for psykers, given that the Tau are fully aware of the forces of Chaos, Psykers, and are very likely to have witnessed rogue psykers within a human population they are going to be studying it even if they can't directly observe the source. So I find it hard to believe they are completely surprised by a psyker manifesting.

I've still only found a sidenote regarding the AdMechs view of the Tau. Suspiciously rapid evolution and they really don't like ANY Tau techinology, up to and including ordering it's destruction on sight rather than study. Could it be that even the most insignificant device has some internal processor that they are afraid of, or just that it represents proof that that something other than the Omnisiah can create similiar results?

Fully aware of psykers? Their first encounter with the forces of Chaos their general thought he killed Slaanesh. Niavetay and ignorance are one of the defining features of the Tau, I wouldn't be so quick to say they know all about Psykers and Chaos if I were you. Especially since they keep falling in to the same trap, with the Tyranids, and then the Dark Eldar.

And yeah, the Admech has a hate on for Tau technology because there are microchips inside it (eyeroll). They hate it for the same reasons they hate Eldar, or any other Xenos, technology. There's nothing special about the Tau in that regard.

Seriously, the Tau's days are numbered. GW has always said this. The absolute ONLY reason they have not yet been purged from the Galaxy is that the Tyranids showed up at just the right time, and the Tau thus became a valuable buffer of sort to secure one tiny flank in the battles again the Devourer.

Yes, they have potential, but as someone said, the ONLY reason they get so many defenders amongst fandom is the Codex, the fact is, even a decent sized Waaaagh could likely erase them from existence. Something along the lines of Ghazkgul (Or however it's spelled). Or even just a large enough Hive Fleet tendril. The fact is, they're going bye bye eventually, and were only ever created as a means to demonstrate the tiny powers that exist, GW even said back in the day that the Tau aren't even the most powerful of the minor races, just probably one of the more relateable and understandable ones.

As for who's interested? Entire Rogue Trader Dynasties and the Mechanicum definitely are interested already. The Black Market trade in Tau Tech is huge (Especially since they're a rare case of a race that does work with other races, and thus has adapted their tech to the humans in their empire). There are inquisitors who BADLY want to wipe them out. No doubt others too, but, well, Again, the Nids.

And to respond to one other thing, honestly, I thin k the Necrons-Chaos-'Nids-Ork split might well be the sort of thing that could save humanity. We don't know the Necrons will avoid the 'Nids, just that the 'Nids do them, and if the Necrons reach full awakening... well, isn't one theory that the nids are just a tool of another of the C'Tan? And the Orks were made to counter them? Yeah, things could get VERY interesting.

Blood Pact said:

Well of course, over the entire of their history they had never encountered a psyker or a deamon so they were surprised. But they aren't now, they've fought Chaos, Tyranids, Eldar and entire crusades of the Imperium. Do you expect we to believe that they haven't been studying that, they haven't got theories about it, that they are still surprised by every psker, who's naive now?

Siranui said:

Sorry, I'm content with living in Germany, don't wanna join the Tau.

Alex

Face Eater said:

You are, because you seem to expect the Tau to become experts on chaos because they've fought them a handful of times. As I said, in their first encounter the Tau commander thought he'd killed Slaanesh. So they know there are bands of corrupt and evil humans out there, until they capture some of them and what? Learn about the insane ways of the followers of Chaos. Yeah, that's going to make a whole lot of sense. And anyone hearing all that is likely to be corrupted themself. So unless the Tau empire has its own little blue Inquisition, they're largely going to be ignorant and reactionary to whatever Chaos forces exist among their human populace.

Psykers they'd know a bit more about, since it's not a naturally insane and confusing subject like Chaos is. But again, they're hardly going to be experts on the subject. They have no psykers of their own, so they can't study them, and it's not as if they stand out from the human populace unless they're actively using their powers. Yes, there's genetic tests that can probably be performed, but it's much more likely that the Imperium's Black Ships just use psykers of their own to find their cargo, which would be a hell of a lot faster than screening every single human on a world to find them. Their first encounters with human psykers aren't likely to be on the battlefield, since they're relatively rarely fielded in that way, and more likely to be when one of them gets possessed or otherwise causes havok on one of their annexed worlds.

So yeah, they're screwed. Because they're stepping out in to a big, hostile universe, having just shrugged off their only real protection from the dangers out there. Being too small and insignificant for anyone to notice or care about them.

ak-73 said:

What, you don't want to join a priviledged elite, convinced that they are morally correct and instilling their ethics and way of life on other societies via promises of prosperity, propaganda and subtle threats, while leeching them of their labour-power and assets, watering down and 'modernising' their culture, all for the greater good? Ah wait... G8 member. Already done that!

I see less difference between the Tau and the contemporary First World than I do between us and the Imperium! But I'm a cynic.

Dulahan said:

Certainly, any of the Orks, Imperium, Tyranids or Chaos (although the why they would would be a mystery). I would suspect that their longevity is going to be entirely based on model sales. If they do well then it's likely that the next codex (perhaps next edition of 40K) substantially increases their power.

Blood Pact said:

Fair enough, they aern't going to have Forbidden lore (The Warp) as you say, when it comes to chaos their only source is what they find on the battlefield or in chaos cults (and interogations/ hertical writings of. Same with the Imperium, but of course the Imperium has been doing it for 10,000 years, on the other hand they keep it a terrifying secret from the whole population anyway where as what little the Tau know is going to be diseminated, which isn't as dangerous for the Tau as they can't be psykers or sorcers (I think).

I agree with you one pskyers except for a few points, 1) that's assuming they don't get hold of any psykers that are studied or interogated, 2) it's can be pretty difficult to find psykers who don't use their powers, 3) local authorities are likely to already have ways of finding psykers for the black ships, even if it's just a network that people can grass each other up to if they start to spot the local phenomena. I'd certainly expect that based on that they have a good starting point for studying psykers genetics, even if, as you say, actually testing the populous takes a massive amount of time.

Blood Pact said:

If they hate all xeno tech equally it seems strange that they would need to issue order AdMech 666 specifically to call for it's destruction. Of course it could just be that they give the same order for each alien species they come into contact with, tedious beurocracy is hugely important for the Imperium.

They probably hate Eldar tech even more, seeing as they distrust psykers and it's made by psykers of pure warp stuff.

Well, the Tau are one of the very small number of Xenos out there that actually want humans to get ahold of their tech, selling it as an enticement toward membership in their Empire.

There's more than one way to conquer an enemy, they're trying it with economics and luxuries in addition to military force.

One big problem the Tau have is in terms of "Grand Strategy" - their ships move on an interplanetary scale a LOT slower than almost any other faction. This is bad when they're such a tiny empire. Each new world makes it harder to deal with big threats.