Tau septs seem to works as 'cells' in a way, espousing a common ideology (enforceable via the caste system - a feudal system would allow too much individual interpretations of the core 'facts' of society). The collectivist social structure of the Tau actually could work wonders for the distributed leadership model of the Imperium, and with there being no speedy communication or travel options for them, local defence is likely to be far superior. Not only that, but so far we have no confirmation as to how the tau raise armies. One would assume that their methods of raising fleets and armies are, to their own population, much less damaging to local infrastructure, moral and manpower than Imperial tithes.

Not to say the little blue freaks are 'good', they are damnable Xenos after all. But they have no expectations of salvation should they be attacked, fostering a localised 'co-operative' of defence rarely seen outside of Imperial 'vassal' empires such as Ultramar. A secondary effect of their slower-than-thou warp drive is predictability. If help IS coming, they know to a good degree of accuracy when.

The double whammy of technology and reliable intelligence on the distribution of their own forces makes them a far bigger threat locally, than as an entire empire, and this is likely the game plan. Acting like the Imperium, and painting the galaxy in broad strokes is too crude for the Tau (atleast at present). Instead, in their own way, they build up local interests, local force distributions and local 'human/xeno' interest campaigns in both diplomatic and media environments, playing to their strengths and avoiding the problems that come with galactic logistics and centralisation.

Hate the Xenos, but know his ways.

Eh? Not an expert on the little hoofers, but don't they have warp drives and FLT, albeit lacking Navigators and thus capable of only 'skimming' the warp, at a lower speed than Imperial vessels?

The lower speed of fleets would be an issue were the Tau not a fairly 'local' phenomenon, and if timescales were short. If they need to travel faster on a small scale, I guess they'd hire someone with 'true' warp capability, such as the Kroot.

Siranui said:

Close, but not quite.

Lacking Navigators doesn't have anything to do with it - the Orks and the Eldar both lack Navigators yet are both capable of travelling through the Warp (the Eldar choose not to, but have the technology to if absolutely necessary), as did humanity for around four millennia after the Warp Drive was first developed (Warp Travel was developed by humans in M18, with Navigators being created in M22), and that didn't stop them.

The Tau haven't been able to develop a true Warp Drive, for reasons believed to be tied to their comparatively weak psychic presence, and instead can press into the barrier between the Warp and reality for short periods of time before being forced out again (like holding a ping pong ball underwater - if you let go, it'll shoot back up to the surface). This allows them to travel at a significant fraction of the speeds achieved by true Warp Travel.

Siranui said:

The Kroot have never been willing to share their Warp Drives with the Tau, preferring to retain a degree of independence from the Tau, sending portions of their species away as mercenaries to hunt more widely than the Tau might otherwise prefer them to.

The small size of the Tau Empire, broadly speaking, is caused more by a lack of faster-than-light communication than slow faster-than-light travel - lacking psykers of their own, they have nothing comparable to the Astropaths of the Imperium, and thus no way to send information from system to system except a fleet of Messenger-class starships which physically carry the information around, a process far slower than Astrotelepathy (which, according to a couple of novels, is also used for short-range communication between starships and naval facilities over distances where vox transmissions would take too long to reach the recipient).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I was wondering how they were dealing with interstellar coms. I pressumed they might might some kind of quantum entanglement communicatiors. But apparently not.

Ditto.

I was under the impression that several Tau allies use warp travel (including the Kroot). Rather than consign urgent dispatches via Messenger craft, it would make more sense for them to employ allies with true-warp capability as couriers where possible.

Siranui said:

As far as I'm aware, of the member species within the Tau Empire, only the Kroot have Warp Travel, and they don't share it (nor are they particularly trusted, in part because they refuse to submit entirely to the Greater Good, and in part because of their cannibalistic tendencies, which most Tau regard as distasteful at best). The Vespid and Nicassar both lack Warp Travel of their own and are reliant on the Tau for travel between the stars. The Demiurg are allies and trade partners rather than a member species, and so aren't as easily called upon (and given that the Demiurg have provided the Tau with technology before, it seems that if they were inclined to sell the secrets of true Warp Travel, they would have done so already).

In short, "employing allies with true-warp capability as couriers" isn't a reliable method of doing things, compared to a network of deep-void relay stations and a fleet of Skether'qa n (Messenger) Class Starships running between them.

I do not think that the Tau warp-tech limitation is so much a technical problem, but a 'spiritual' or at least psionic one if you will. navigators are able to 'see' in the depths of the warp, guiding their craft through the turbulence and tides to their destination (Emperor permitting). The tau, on the other hand, may not even be able to 'nose-dive' their vessel into this churning sea from their current position on the skein keeping the two dimension apart, as they simply cannot perceive it. no amount of equation-writing or theoretical debate is going to reveal this element to them.

Even given the technology itself (assuming there is also a technical limitation), they will have to procure a specific subset of psyker to travel by human standards, as it is mentioned in many other sources that with the exception of several major xenos races (likely major simply due to being able to travel large distances and thus spread) most races travel pretty slowly. Exceptions being the Stryxis (unknown method of warp travel navigation) and the Hrud (don't use ships at all). Demiurg have not been documented, so I cannot comment, if they have a purely technological human-speed warp drive then my theory is totally scuppered .

From where I stand, the Tau, through enforced ignorance or actual ignorance, cannot dive to the depths of the warp due to lacking Gellar field technology (they currently use a gravitic sheath than i am unsure fulfils the same role in such a way that anything but partial warp exposure is survivable) and having no navigator style psyker at the helm.

Couriers don't mean much if the enemy fleet can still get there long before your main battle fleet. It essentially allows he Imperium to choose the point of battle, as the Tau can't get from point A to point B nearly as fast. Strategically that's an almost insurmountable advantage on its own.

This allows the Imperium (Or Orks, or whomever) to attack somewhere, bombard it/destroy orbitals, and move out before a bigger fleet can arrive until they have the bigger fleet, then they can attack at their leisure. Or the fleet arrives, you jump out and go to the next world, they take a lot longer to get there, etc etc.

Yes, Tau ships might be slightly better in a straight up fight, but it doesn't matter when they can't project the force even in the small scale they live on.

It's a crippling disadvantage if the Imperium know it and can take advantage of it. Do they? Given the Tau's love of mobile warfare and advanced technology, the gap in communications capability must be startlingly obvious to the Tau. In their shoes then I'd certainly utilise both Tau Messenger-class craft AND have crucial lines of communication covered by additional hired couriers from races capable of faster warp travel. It's kinda common sense.

It's fairly comparable to be equipped with radio when your enemy isn't. It's a massive advantage that you can take advantage of *if* you are yourself agile enough in grand strategy to exploit it [cf: OODA loop]. Given the Imperium's somewhat leviathan-like nature, it's probably not one that's fully exploited.

its true, the imperium does operate more along the lines of observe, orient, decide, lose the paperwork

I would imagine that without some kind of 'magic' navigation machine, as used on non navigator vessels in the imperium and pressumable used prior to the developement of navigators then yes there's nothing to be gained from the warp for the Tau.

But pressumable that also means that their near warp travel navigates based on real space observation. Potentially that means that they would be a lot more accurate than the Imperial naval which, as far as I've read still can't actually get that close to the target and has a significant amount of real space transit after a warp jump. It could be that the Tau could warp travel within a system and by being able to get a lot closer could effectively negate the warp speed advantage for short warp jumps, next system over say. Obviously at greater distances the time taken in real space becomes insignificant.

Siranui said:

It is common sense... but frequently, common sense options are hindered by the practicalities of the situation. The two known allies of the Tau with faster/true Warp Travel are the Kroot - who don't share it, and aren't really trusted - and the Demiurg - who are hardly numerous, and not actually bound to the Tau Empire - plus whatever human-operated vessels remain in the Tau Empire (which are still limited compared to what the Imperium can manage, given the comparative rarity of Navigators, and the fact that I can't imagine a Navigator willingly turning his or her back on an Imperium that gives them so much power and freedom already).

One thing to remember is that this isn't a deficiency on the part of the Tau, but rather something the Imperium excels at (as much as you can excel at hurling yourself across the cosmos via a shortcut through hell). Navigators and the Astronomicon are exceptional things, providing the Imperium with an almost unrivalled capacity to travel between the stars. Few other species or factions can claim anything coming close - Ork warp travel is largely instinct-driven, and they don't maintain a singular civilisation, but rather a vast number of tribes and petty empires, while the Eldar employ the Webway instead (though they have the means to travel the Warp, it's dangerous and unreliable, in part because of their psychic magnitude, and in part because they lack Navigators).

Loose the paperwork... I like it.

True enough that Navigators 'do well' in the Imperium, but it's a sellers market, and they might 'do better' with the Tau. And of course there are plenty (a majority perhaps if newer canon is considered?) of Charterist vessels sans navigators that would - assuming the Tau control both 'ends' of the route - have nothing else to do *but* continue to shuffle backwards and forwards. It certainly wouldn't cover more than a fraction of routes or even be common, but I imagine that the Tau take every chance to use such resources where available.

I'd also imagine that the Tau can mitigate the Imperium's strategic speed a little by merit of having better deep space sensors, so that if something does turn up in-system, the Tau know about it sooner. That's conjecture of course, but it's conjecture that's sparking a few plot ideas:

Imperium wishes to launch a hasty attack on a Tau planet or facility, and needs to retain strategic surprise throughout the operation. However, the objective has a traitorous charter vessel in high orbit that will immediately run away and go and tell the Tau if the Imperium turn up. Kill team need to sneak in-system on a stealth ship, figure out how to covertly stow away on the vessel and then -when the Imperium launch their attack- they have to wait for the ship to 'get away' to take word to the Tau before hijacking it in a manner that the Tau who dispatched it don't realise that it will never reach its destination and will be waiting for reinforcements that will never come. Bonus points for capturing the Tau courier and for dealing with issues due to a Geller Field fluctuation half-way through taking the ship.

Tau would LOVE to figure out how that warp gate works and deploy stealthy assets to try to investigate it. Kill-team just happens to be travelling back through the gate to the Reach when it occurs, notices it, and gets sent to sort it out. Unfortunately, Tau have triggered some automated defences. Party must deal with both factions, or are forced to team up with the Tau to destroy a common enemy. Do they then honour the deal, or are they treacherous scum-buckets?

despite the destraction of the hive fleets the only reson the tau are still alive is the buracracy of the imprium is so **** slow by the time those in power know what has happend it has become to late to do any thing with out paying a higher cost then they belive the target is worth while local forces seem to be alowed to conduct defensive and anti pirate manuvers to conduct any sort of real offensive you need to wait for premission witch means waiting for the buracracy witch means at beast probly a few years but possibly even decades before any thing is donewitch lead to debacles like tarous now granted if a raid or assinastion can solve the issue it can be solved with out a lot of the waiting as an iquistor or a astartes force have the athority to act with out waiting and local leaders (governers and sector fleet commands do have the athority to ask for assistence from these groups witch means the tau either have to not move or make big moves beacuse while the imperiums rapid reaction force usaly can not do much against a full army because no matter how good the astartes may be you are unlikly to draw more then a company + support down in a rapid reaction role meaning you do not have the manpower for a prolonged engagment larger gatherings are almost alweas in support of large armies of guard or pdf.

ok i am just rambling now and my grammer and spelling is even worse then normal so i'll shut up for a bit

Hello everyone,

I just wanted to chim in on this discussion, I've actually recommended and sent links out to some friends in regards to this thread.

@ Narkasis Broon

Hahaha Lawl, yup that is the Imperium for ya

@Siranui

I would like to support your claim on the "deep space sensors". I direct any of you who possess a copy of Imperial armour 3 The Taros Campaign to look in there. Also the Battlefleet Gothic material (available for free on the GW website) has described the use of way stations and ports used as lines of communication.

The Tau Fleet (or Kor'or'vesh) on page 216 IA3, I quote "The Tau Empire is linked together by a network of small orbitals and waystations. These waystations fulfill many different roles, but all act as stopping-off points long interstellar journies. They mark the main routes between Tau Septs and are used as communication relay points. They are operated and maintained by the air caste."

Also your adventures sound like a great way to break the deadlock on the Canis Salient.

@ All

I wonder about Rogue traders, it has often come up that they have worked/traded with the Tau. It seems quite possible a deal could be struck on use of navigators? Sounds kinda like an endeavor a Rt would make if he/she were on the more radical side of things.

If the Tau do have access to navigators I doubt it would be in any sufficient quantity to maintain multiple stellar lines of communication simple by travel.

On the note of astropaths, the Imperium may have the advantage of using these pyskers to communicate, but it can be a disadvantage at the same time. Sending a message into the warp is like sticking a message in a bottle, taking that bottle and strapping it to a rocket and pray to the emperor it makes it. The warp is a fickle thing.

The Tau are well known for their ability to adapt quickly to situations, fluid in their tactics and strategic planning. When the Imperials are able to bring the tau fleet into a major engagement I can easily see ( and have experienced it in my foray in Battlefleet gothic) it being a pyrrhic victory. On the strategic level, the Tau have the advantage in terms of proximity to their home territory. Not saying the imperials couldn't have that either, but the Tau's aggressive attempts at invading imperial territory are opportunistic, unlike the Imperium who launch crusades against whole sectors of space dividing their forces up. With the Tau being so close to homelands they are able to pick and choose more often when to do battle. Using way stations as places to muster fleets and attack against rear imperial supply lines, disrupting and dividing Imperial battlegroups picking them off in small engagements.

BrotherFiacco said:

They still wouldn't have direct access to Navigators, but rather theoretical access to others with access to Navigators.

My question would be, what does the Tau Empire have to offer a Navigator that he doesnt' already benefit from by being a member of the Navis Nobilite, one of the most free and politically powerful organisations in the Imperium?

BrotherFiacco said:

Astropaths may have their difficulties, but it's still vastly more reliable than anything almost anybody has, and far from as pointlessly unreliable as you seem to think it is. That's the point - if the combination of Navigators, the Astronomicon and Astropaths were not effective and broadly reliable, the Imperium would not have spread so far or become as strong as it is. They're a huge advantage over the equivalent capabilities of the majority of other species and factions out there (of the civilisations still remaining in the galaxy, only the Eldar can really claim to have had an empire on a galactic scale, and that's due to the understandably massive advantage of the Webway and their even greater mastery of the psychic arts).

It's deliberate that the Tau can't match the Imperium in this regard... because nobody can. The Imperium has stood for ten thousand years on the strength of its ability to travel and communicate between the stars swiftly and reliably.

Again it is why I brought up Rogue Traders as being a the viable means of acquiring the services of a navigator, at a price of course.

More than likely the wealth that would attract a Navigator (through the rogue trader of course) contracting his/her services could rejuvenate the House's fortunes, or perhaps even give it some standing (the means of how they achieved this new influence and power being a tightly kept secret).

The reason I stated the means of astropathic communication (a little exaggerated I admit) is because of how the lore depicts it. Communiques can arrive centuries late or never at all to the intended destination. Psykers are fabled being, but there are only so many that can truly wield it with clarity through the hells of the warp, your average astropath might last several decades before succumbing to madness. Others will manage for centuries sending messages to and from. The quality of the Psyker matters importantly to the survival of Imperial worlds, from back wanter frontiers to major hive worlds it will vary. Plus with how bureacratic the Imperium is the response to an incurison or invasion will be slow and ponderous one incident and swift and decisive in the next.

I wasn't saying it was unreliable, but when orks show up in your system, you hope to the god emperor the message will make it to someone within the week rather than a decade later. For the Tau Empire, they will continue to expand without psykers as it did before. As Sokahrthumaniel said a page back, the Tau must have a system of response against enemy incursion. This by means of the way stations, and constant trade transports. Perhaps Tau vessels automatically exchange and update information on the routes of travel to help in course corrections and more efficient travel? Maybe important messages are given priority over the cargo and transmitted short distances (relatively speaking here) between comm relay stations, ships, and sept worlds until it reaches those who's eye need to see it? Speculation! Whee

I was under the impression that Astropathic messaging was very fast... it was in timely and effective response that the Imperium was lacking. The effectiveness of the Astropaths and Navigators is best demonstrated by what happened when they stopped working properly, and man's empire fell apart.

What can the Tau offer them? Change and hope. It worked for Obama. For many people that's enough, and there doesn't need to be a vast change in orientation or wealth for them to jump ship. Perhaps sell them the concept of greater good, appeal to liberalism, et al. The idea that they can walk amongst the population and not be a freak (albeit a rich one!)? Better anti-aging treatments? A place to live where their House is not part of deadly inter-house politic-ing. An iPhone (semi-seriously: The Tau are in a better place to offer luxury technology than the Imperium, it seems). Alternatively: Being one of the first to join the Tau and thus a chance to politically establish a new House.

I can also see there being a healthy black market in Navigators and Astropaths (and perhaps even wild psykers with the ability) being serviced via RTs and criminal elements. Given the cost of the Tau's messenger network, they can afford to pay up to and beyond the price of a starship for a Navigator and Astropath, and will be saving themselves a fortune simply by then employing the Navigator /Astropath. Control via drugs or brainwashing might work, but alternatively they can offer a small palace and to basically keep the 'slave' in a life of luxury. It might not be a step up for a Navigator, but it probably would be for an Astropath. [Mission idea: Killteam sent to recapture/kill Astropath 'slave' of the Tau, only to find him living a life of luxury in the Playboy Mansion]

As regards the Tau, I'm reminded of the Mongol Empire, which was vast, but serviced by a very effective horseback courier system. For the Tau, I imagine that this includes docking and communications facilities closer to the edge of systems than the Imperium uses, with a Messenger vessel on permanent standby, so that craft jumping into system can 'tag out' to another nearby vessel, and no time is wasted transiting deeper in system or out of it. Once again, this sparks a few more plot ideas.

I also like the idea that the Tau might be capable of terminating or commencing warp jumps closer in-system than the Imperium. What's canon as regards how close in Imperium ships can jump in/out, as it seems to vary, dependant on author?

Very great Ideas! I bet the black market proves to be lucrative in in the trade of psykers. An intriguing analogy. These ideas we all have seem to be the seeds for Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch adventures in the Jericho reach. I can see the silver tongues of the water caste convincing a navigator to join the great good. Better anti-aging treatments? I guess you could look like a young mutated monster at age 300!

In regards of warp transition in system, I believe it depends on the quality of Navigator and the ships warp drives. I'm fairly certain the fluff points to the gravity wells of planets straining the warp drives if the jump is made to close. Although certain organisations such as the Inquisition and the Astartes vessels have access or own higher quality warp drives. For instance in the DoW 2 series a cutscene is shown of a SM fleet appearing in low orbit before dropping its Exterminatus payload.

Hmmm, I wonder what the average size of a tau sept fleet would be? I guess it depends on the Importance of the sept, and how recently it was founded. Compared to Battlefleets of the Imperiums sectors consist of "50-75 ships of varying size". So what about the Tau? More than likely battlegroup equivalents centered around the custodian class ship, similar to the modern day carrier groups.

My friends and I are about to embark on a grand campaign of sorts. Involving a whole subsector of Imperial space and perhaps more, the Tau are going to be one of the factions. The question above made me think about expeditionary fleets that the tau send out, the Tau faction involved in our campaign will be attempting to colonize and expand. So I would like to include much of what has been discussed here to give narrative for the "Filthy Blue Hereteks" manifest destiny.

Canonically - the closer you jump in to a planet the more dangerous it is. Though it is technically possible. However, you risk losing a bunch of your fleet to gravity wells and the sudden forces they get exposed to. Rynn's World has an example where the Ork Fleet jumps in right next to the planet, but loses like half their fleet in the process (On the other hand, it is responsible for a MAJOR tactical success because the Crimson Fists' traps and ships were set up much further away, and they thought they'd get a lot more warning too)

To be honest, unless they have changed how navigators work, I'm surprised they get the option to drop out of the warp any where near a planet at all, aiming from the 100+ lightyears away and navigating with by a light millions of light years away, you would have thought that getting near the system at all is difficult.

Simple answer is that clearly planets have a presence in the warp and navigating is about finding them in the vastness of the warp, which of course isn't even going to a void like realspace. That explains how orks can choose where to come out of warp without navigators (as long as they find the system at all).