Hi there fellow GM´s.

I was just wondering what constitutes tech heresy when speaking of weapon modification.

Is it heretical for an untrained (not mechanicus) person to, for example, attach a red dot laser sight on an autopistol? I think a case could be made that it actually is heresy since the ruling body of the Imperium really don´t want people in general messing around with any tech at all, hence labeling such meddling heresy.

Taking apart a weapon to see how it works is obviously heresy unless the person is some sort of sactified authority on the matter.

How harsh are you in your games when it comes to these sorts of things? I can imagine that someone with alot of customized weapons will have some trouble with the local enforcers and maybe even arbites.

Hi Stormhamster,

I think you are much to harsh. In my opinion, it Tech-Heresy if a Tech-Thing is treated/used/modified in an unsanctioned fashion . Of course, only the Technomants, Tech-Adepts, Recyclators and Tech-Priests now what is a sanctioned technique and what not. And they are not about spreading information to the masses.

Thereby, anyone not of this branch will be afraid of tinkering with Tech. Unless they are Hereteks.

Storhamster said:

Hi,

on the other hand every soldier in the Imperial Guard is issued a Lasgun Maintainance Kit (according to the Uplifting Primer). Therefore, they are required to take their guns apart and clean them.

I would also see it like Gregorius. Small-time modifications like weapon attachments shouldnt be much of aproblem (in the way they are meant to be installed). Doing thins that they are not designed to do would label one as a Heretek. However, it all depends on if someone sees you doing it in the first place.

Ariakor said:

Of course it should be pointed out that you don't really take a gun apart completely simply for cleaning - at least judging from real life military experience, although it may depend on the actual model. There will still be lots of parts that remain "closed" because the soldier's focus is on the barrel and cleaning the small moving parts on the outside of the individual components as they can become dirty. In case of the lasgun, for example, I could see soldiers cleaning a few lenses, but without opening the emitter.

I agree, however, that a simple weapon attachment would not usually qualify for tech-heresy - if the gun was made for it (such as possessing a railing where one could fit it) or the modification can be improvised without actual tampering (such as duct-taping a flashlight to an autogun).
If, however, the character in question is actually altering the weapon itself, such as by drilling holes into it, then I could very well see this being regarded as an unsanctioned modification, disrespectful to the machine spirit and outside the specifications set forth by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

That said, there will likely be as many different opinions within the setting itself as there will be in the forum, so it might indeed depend on the invididual NPC.

Probably the simplest deffinition of "Tech Heresy" would be attempting to develop new technology without the sanction of the Priests of Mars, or the use of any component of Xeno technology.

It often depends on who is doing the modification (and whether it is AM-sanctioned).

There are many AM-trained Technomats around that were trained in the right maintenance rituals for anything from the water-processing unit of a hive to the tracks of an Imperial Guard Chimera. These do nothing else than performing these rituals to keep the respective machine spirit from getting angry (i.e. the respective machine from breaking) by allocating the right amount of holy machine oil at the right time, by using the right lever at the right time (while intonating the right catechism) and by not tinkering with the mechanical system or allowing anyone to do so.

Attaching a red-dot-laser onto a weapon could be "least tech heresy" for a very conservative Tech Priest if it wasn't done by a person trained properly, but normally that would be absolutely okay. Changing a piece of techonolgy from what it was dedicated to is where tech-heresy begins though in my opinion. So jury-rigging Lasgun ammo to have an overcharged one or jury-rigging the engine of a quad-wheeler by a non-AM person is "least tech-heresy" for sure (there is an example in the character description of the Enginseer in the DH book). Taking apart technology to see how it works is frowned upon by the AM (as it will anger the machine spirit...) and the AM simply does not want anyone to (try to) understand techology or even perform some sort of research (which would be considered as blasphemy except if done by someone of Magos-rank).

I am not too harsh in my games though as we have a Tech Priest PC with them and thus I asume most Enforcers would assume such stuff is sanctioned. Besides most local Enforcers don't know anything about such things and are not intrested either (except if it is too blatantly like driving with a Reaver Jetbike through a hive...), as they mostly care about local laws. Adeptus Arbites would not be interested in "least tech-heresy" either as they could not discern any non-sanctioned techology in the same way. The greatest problem could be the AM itself, if it gets wind of it somehow.

Luthor Harkon said:

This.

There are a host of things regarded as Tech Heresy that are beyond the ability of the Mechanicus to police, most of which are the technical equivalent of taking your preferred deity's name in vain - impious and irreverent, certainly, but a minor consideration next to matters of greater importance.

Also remember that - and this is the case for the Ecclesiarchy as well - there are a host of religious offences that an individual might commit (least and petty heresies, if you will) that are most commonly punished through acts of contrition or penance. Not every heresy or blasphemy is worthy of death and excommunication - a lot of the time, twenty Ave Imperator s and a visit to the temple's Excoriator for five strokes of the lash, or eight iterations of the operator's litany (in the traditional binary) are sufficient.

" iv. Modifying weapons or equipment in unauthorized ways (regardless of functionality)

Any soldier who modifies his weapon or equipment without permission, but such that it still retains its functionality will be flogged. Subsequent offenses will result in the offender being incarcerated for a period not less than three months, followed by flogging. (Art. 4432/09e) "

DON'T DO IT!

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Now maybe a good time to point out the the Ecclesiarchy see the Adptus Mechanius as a Heretical Cult, one that should be expunded from the universe, but lack the power to do so, as the AM maintain the tech and weapons that the imperium is built on, so your above statement is not true at all. The AM is a fuedal organisation like most of the organisations of the 40k universe, Do as I say not as I do" is a very good way of looking at things.

Is attaching a Red-dot sight to a gun tech-heresy?

The anser is both simple and complex as it is both yes and no, in it's most simplistic of terms.

Heresy is subjective, to one person what my be heresy might be the norm to others, and like all organisations of the 40K universe the AM are fractured and not only in power struggles with other organisations such as the Ecclesiarchy but also amounst it's own members.

Valdek said:

How they regard eachother has no bearing whatsoever on how they deal with matters of offences against their various religions... and the Cult Mechanicus (which exists within the Adeptus Mechanicus) is most certainly a religion (which is why the Adeptus Ministorum have such an issue with it). The matter of organisational structure and religious authority go hand-in-mechadendrite within the Mechanicus, with those who possess the greatest institutional power also being regarded as the highest religious authorities (because the only true authority in the Mechanicus comes from being part of the ruling priesthood - that is, being a Magos, Artisan, Genetor or Logis).

You appear to have missed my point entirely - my point was that with both the major legitimate religious organisations in the Imperium (being the Church of the God-Emperor, as legitimised by the Adeptus Ministorum, and the Cult of the Machine God as legitimised by the Adeptus Mechanicus, whether or not the Ecclesiarchy accept them as such), the matter of religious offences are a massive grey area, where severity of offence and severity of punishment vary immensely. In both cases, it is far from simply being "you're a heretic/heretek, and thus you must burn/be converted into a servitor".

Now if instead of a red dot on the gun, you put little legs, a micro-bead, and make it capable of searching out and shooting targets on it's own without much to go on beyond "Get those guys". Then you be dead and your little robot with you.

vastrix said:

Sentient robots are banned but not drone weaponry. There are plenty of gun emplacements that have cognitors that will be automated. Because it is a robot does not mean it is sentient.

Good point. Psyber-lures, Servoskulls, Execution rounds, Cyber-mastiffs, servitor-controlled gun turrets, ...

Still, the tricky part would be that the above have been sanctioned by the AdMech - unlike that which the character built by himself. I'm sure a good deal of "tech heresy" is also simply the Mechanicus making sure that they retain their monopoly.

Lynata said:

Keep in mind though that cyber-mastiffs and servitors still have an organic brain or at least part of it. And that is rather important. The same is most probably true for the more pro-active servo-skulls (in comparison to those simply hovering and giving light (thus do not needing any cognitive function)). Execution rounds are simply homing bullets in the way as missiles (and this I would not consider as any sort of "intelligence").

There are some the astartes aa guns(turrets) and some turrets that are automated with cognitar systems, land raiders ,etc..

thor2006 said:

Yeah but first, they are space marines and thus stand a bit outside the rest of the Imperium. Second, these are ancient, venerable designs with a proven history. The machine spirits in these war machines are undoubtedly complex and useful, but time has proven that they can be considered "safe".

Bladehate said:

But defensive laser, orbital defensive sattelites,manticore emplacements,heavy bolter ,hydra platforms and hydra tanks(auto targeting rule codex IG 5edition),tarantulas automated sentry guns(Imperial Armor volume 1) are not.

thor2006 said:

I believe that the "machine spirit"-controlled weapons on a Land Raider are controlled by organic servitor-brains- I seem to recall seeing a cut-away diagram of a LL that depicted weapon systems wired into a human skull...

thor2006 said:

If you're looking for some kind of logic to the WH40K universe, I hate to be the one to break it to you...but you're out of luck.

Some advanced machinery is ok. Other things are not. If you have a problem with that, ask your nearest Ad-Mech...but never fear, if he gives you an answer you don't like just keep asking a different Ad-Mech until you eventually find a guy that gives you the answer you do like...

A little late, but an opinion to be shared none the less. I've always been of the opinion that Heresy is less about what you do (barring extremes like denouncing the Emperor or creating Iron Men) and more about how you do it. Guardsmen rely on the Ad mec, yes, but most of the work they do on vehicles is done by, to use a technical term, shmucks. They follow the proper rituals and intone the proper rites as they work through every step of repairs, maintenance and re-fitting, and so they're ok. Now the example mentioned earlier about jury-rigging is Heresy because they didn't follow sacred procedure.

Look, for example, at the various patterns of Las and SP weaponry, and the fact that the core book tells of how many millions of makes and models there are, and the stats are just generic to reflect comparable power levels. All these patterns were developed from a basic underlying principle, and most of them have been created long after STC templates became virtually unfindable. The reason these new patterns are acceptable is because while they may differ from others, the basic function of them is the same, and the research is done by those with the power to not be found out and killed for doing it. There are several mentions of "new" designs, but these are obviously not considered heretical because the Ad Mec sees profit and usefulness as the result, rather then a challenge of their authority.

Treat it the way you would treat Radicalism: While some of the Emperor's greatest champions are Warp-tainted Sorcerers, they are among the venerated Avatars of the Emperor's will. At the same time, a guardsman who gets lucky and happens to be spared from an enemy who gets struck by lightning would likely be burned. Context, appearance, and status all determine who is a heretic and who is an official.

Your specific question, the attachment of weapon modifications, would not be Heretical at all - the character is not changing anything, and the proper rites of fastening and ritual of lens alignment (part of the Tech use or Common lore (Tech) skills) would simply make him no different from any other fellow.

Whether something is Heresy is a matter of politics and as such is quite situational. It depends on whether or not someone has something to gain from branding you a heretic (or something to gain from NOT branding you a heretic), whether they can gain support for their views, and whether they can muster the power or authority to do anything about it.

Raving Redemptionist runs into the local Arbites Precinct House

Redemptionist: "Heresy I say, Heretics, they're all Heretics!"

Arbiter: "Just put him in the drunk tank again Billy".

or

Johnny Scrag-Butt walks into the acolytes safe house and pulls out a very nasty looking autogun.

Scum: "Hey guys check out my new piece, I've added a red dot sight and a fire selector, and to top it off I did it myself so apart from the cost of the parts at the market it was free."

Assassin: "Cool, I might get a silencer for mine."

Arbiter: "Awesome lawgiver buddy."

Cleric: "Cool, you'll be able to blow away heaps more heretics now."

Adept: "I like it, I wish I had thought of it."

Psyker: "I agree, very gucci."

Guardsman: "Awesome mods man, can you do it to mine too."

Tech Pirest "No it's heres.... (looks around at team-mates admiring said autogun) hang on, what did you all say? Oh **** it, cool gun man."

Ultimately, Tech Heresy is whatever the local Ad Mech in charge says it is; as is heresy to the God Emperor ... many times these charges are used as political tools and ways to trim away those who offend the local "high priest". (generic term, depending on which religion you serve) This has been the case with religion throughout history.

That said, on average a Tech Priest who witnesses a character attaching a scope to his gun, or a soldier breaking his weapon down for cleaning, without intoning the proper prayers, will chastise the offender and that's about it. Possibly, if the Priest is bored, or vindictive, he may require penance in the form of a flagelation or a fine. Even in the small scheme of things these are minor transgressions akin to forgetting to genuflect when you pass a church.

On the scale of holy sanctity, a gun is about the equivalent of an animal to the Priesthood of Mars at large; so they would become upset to see it abused in any way - such as a non priest creating an overcharge pack or cursing while they try to force out a jam - but aside from some stern words, and maybe suggestion to that individual's superior (if he has one) that he do some minor penance, the response will be mostly insignificant.

If that same person is seen kicking a jeep because it won't start, (imagine seeing a person beat a horse because he is frustrated) the AdMech will intercede and insure the abuse stops immediately. He may also confiscate the vehicle and speak to a local authority about keeping an eye on said heretic. (in a military scenario he might temporarily relieve the person of duty until he can talk to his commander)

For anything more complex the reaction should be immediate and severe. The AdMech may still not see the crime as an executable offense, (especially if he has other need of that person's skills) but the offender should expect an immediate beat down by the priest and a flogging and imprisonment by the local power. (even non admech ruled areas are going to want to keep the Priesthood happy and so will accept the majority of their suggestions when it comes to punishing tech heresy)

At least, this is how I tend to read the religion and enforce their beliefs. Individual scenarios may vary, of course, depending on the situation and those involved.