I remember reading somewhere that sympathetic cylons lose their character's abilities. Is that true? If so, does it mean that sympathetic cylons can no longer pilot vipers?

Thanks!

I'm afraid that is true. If you get the sympathetic cylon card you become a lame version of a cylon leader, more than likely half way through the game and you have a blank character slate like a regular cylon even when infiltrating.

The Sympathetic is sadly one of those points of the game when clearly the develepment team just flat out wasn't thinking.

Sorry....:-(

Napoleon.

Okay, thanks. It does seem a little strange that Sympathetic Cylons are weaker than Cylon Leaders, and on top of that they're only given half a game to achieve their agendas. I looked at boardgamegeek for possible variants, but I only saw a couple ideas there.

It doesn't seem like it would unbalance the game too much if Sympathetic Cylons could keep their character abilities. I mean, Cylon Leaders have abilities and they have the exact same agendas as Sympathetic Cylons. Maybe I'll try that as a house rule.

Sympathetic cylons are weaker than leaders for two reasons:

1) They're not leaders.

2) They're meant to be weaker. They're a rule-based balancing factor to keep the two teams' chances of winning closer in 4 and 6 player games where an extra full-blown cylon would be too good.

#1 is just flavor, and can be tossed out the window pretty easily. #2 is a balance problem and should be tread upon lightly, if at all.

Yes...that's true the sympathizer and sympathetic are both used as balancing elements for the overall game. The problem arises for the poor guy who gets stuck with the sympathetic cylon. Half way through the game you get a secret agenda which technically COULD be impossible to complete. That isn't fair and certainly not "balanced" for the sympathetic sucker. There NEEDS to be some consideration for their fun level too.

In terms of their role in the game, it seems like Sympathetic Cylons and Cylon Leaders are almost identical. They have the same agendas (at least in a 4 or 6 player game). They both can infiltrate. In addition, if you look at four player games, there will be one Cylon Loyalty Card, and either one Cylon Leader or one Sympathetic Cylon card.

As far as I can tell, these are the only differences between Sympathetic Cylons and Cylon Leaders:

1. Cylon Leaders have special abilities, while Sympathetic Cylons don't

2. Cylon Leaders have a skill set, while Sympathetic Cylons can draw from any color.

3. Cylon Leaders receive their agendas at the beginning of the game, while Sympathetic Cylons receive their agendas during the Sleeper Agent phase.

4. Cylon Leaders receive a Super Crisis Cards, while Sympathetic Cylons don't

It looks like Cylon Leaders have the advantage over Sympathetic Cylons with regards to points 1, 3 and 4. Sympathetic Cylons are more powerful only in terms of point 2. It's nice to be able to draw cards from any color, but it certainly looks like Cylon Leaders are more powerful overall.

So, if Sympathetic Cylons are supposed to be weak in order to maintain game balance, what about games with Cylon Leaders? I mean, Sympathetic Cylons and Cylon Leaders can't both be balanced, right? If Sympathetic Cylons are balanced well, then Cylon Leaders must be too powerful. If Cylon Leaders are balanced well, then Sympathetic Cylons must be too weak. Or am I missing something?

napoleonWilson said:

Which agendas can be made impossible before the halfway point?

But in any case, if it's not fun then by all means house rule it. The simplest would be to just not play with that option and use the base sympathizer rules instead. If someone wants to be a pseudo-cylon with an agenda they can always pick a cylon leader from the start. Massaging the sympathizer rules can work too, it's just not as cut and dried as people seem to think (if we assume that the base game is balanced).

avec said:

A limited skill set is very, ummm... limiting. I can't say that they're too powerful or not powerful enough, but in every game we've played they've done fine: sometimes winning and sometimes losing without it ever being a foregone conclusion.

James McMurray said:

I agree that it's difficult or impossible to quantify which type of character is more powerful. It just seems like the Cylon Leaders have a huge advantage by knowing what their agenda is at the beginning of the game.

I get the impression that FFG thought that a 3:2 ratio of humans to cylons was ideal for game balance. So, for 4 player games, they wanted a half human half cylon character to make the ratio 2.5:1.5, which is pretty close to 3:2. If Cylon Leaders and Sympathetic Cylons are both considered to be balanced, then it may not change things too much to let Sympathetic Cylons use their character's abilities.

I think the biggest issue I have is with Sympathetic Cylons who are pilots. If a political or military leader becomes a cylon, then you just pass the President or Admiral card to another player. But if a pilot becomes a cylon, then the humans often have no pilot for the rest of the game. Even if the former pilot is a Sympathetic Cylon who is infiltrating the fleet and wants the humans to win, they still can't pilot vipers for some reason.

avec said:

as far as i know, the only chance for a cylon leader to get a super crisis card, is to use the resurrection ship location after he was executed/decided to end infiltration.

but the same applies to the sympathetic cylon...

napoleonWilson said:

I've found the No Sympathizer variant to be generally superior to either flavor of Symp mechanic. Your mileage may vary, but I strongly suggest giving it a try if you're finding yourself unsatisfied with Symps.

klarlack said:

Good point. They're even more similar than I thought.

One thing about a sympathetic cylon:

If they get a human favoring agenda, then in the first half of the game, they would have been contributing more to the human success than a cylon leader probably would have. With the more cards to draw/use in the first half, and the ability to help out with one of the titles, piloting etc.

If they get a cylon favoring agenda, there is a good chance of the cylons winning, it's just a matter of reaching the other condition. Also, a Cylon leader telegraphs to the other player's what do expect. They may have picked differently because of that (like taking the military leader who can pilot, making sure they have engineering on non-support characters, etc) while turning into a sympathetic cylon doesn't just cost the humans another player, but they lose one of the roles they were counting on.

In either case, the lack of a skill set restriction (plus having left over cards from before the chage) means there is a better chance of the Cylon having a good mix of cards in hand. (A human sympathizing Cylon Leader probably wouldn't want treachery cards unless he is planning to help in an execution, so they would basicaly have their two skill types defined for the whole game, while a sympathetic Cylon that started human may have been building up cards from 3 or 4 sources, and could start grabbing the other skill types when they turn.