Necrozius said:

Being doomed is part of the setting.

As an interesting sidenote, back when the Ephrael Stern miniature had her own rules for the 40k TT, GW did state that this character does not benefit from Acts of Faith performed by any Sororitas squad she is attached to.

Lore-wise, I'm on the fence about Faith powers. On one hand, the Emperor is the atheist's god (he is no god after all, just a supremely powerful psyker ), but on the other hand it gives an oppertunity for people to have option and if the Chaos Gods give their followers all sorts of gifts . The rituals, like someone mentioned earlier, are all part of standard religious lore, so I shrug my shoulders on that.

Mechanics-wise, I think they did a good job. A player will, at any time, have between 1-3 Fate Points, yes? That means they get to choose 1-3 miracles to perform. In the meantime to perform these miracles they must draw from their pool of re-rolls, wound healing, etc. etc. Thus it's just made a harder choice of what to do with a limited resource. Especially since burning them could help you with the game, but it will make you die all the faster (apparently deities don't like their powers being abused... who knew?).

That said, these faith powers will never, ever even begin to threaten the stranglehold that psykers have. The psykers can use their psychic potential repeatedly (to an ever-increasing statistical liklihood of corruption, mutation, and insanity), while the Cleric can only use a few select Faith Powers when the chips are down. Plus, just to add this in case I missed someone pointing it out: The Faith Powers say *ALL* daemons and psykers with a lot of their effects. This would indicate to me that they don't discriminate between friend and foe... to many different levels of painful and embarassing results.

The main issue I have with the Faith system is that those characters that do have access to Faith Talents seem to get them rather easily. 300xp for a miracle seems like a low price to me. If I had my way, I'd present Pure Faith as an Elite Advance that not only costs hefty xp but also has to be maintained through consistent role-playing. By that (As a GM), I'd mean positive role-playing - it's not enough just to refrain from doing evil acts or declare that you are saying something religious before each gunfight.

Insofar as the setting is concerned, the issue of faith - particularly the Living Saint - has been a long-running problem that's gone on long before Dark Heresy was even thought of. There's a great precedent for individuals (Ok, Adepta Sororitas) manifesting miraculous powers apparently nothing to do with the warp and possibly little to do with the Emperor. Your mileage may vary on whether you think this is sufficient excuse for the talents as they are in Blood of Martyrs, but it's part of the setting already.

Tullio said:

Those are pretty "minor" miracles though, that mostly can be conceptualized as not really being miracles (just zealotry at work). For one of the big ones, you're going to have to spend a lot of XP to meet all the prereqs. (Really only a few are clearly "miraculous," -- glowing and so forth.)

Maybe I'm just trying to rationalize them...

bogi_khaosa said:

1. Page 59 states you can buy missed advances from ranks of your original career that you miss to take an alternate career rank can be purchased at list cost +50 XP. So a starting Arbitrator (Confessor) could spend 150 XP to pick up Pistol Training (SP) for 150 XP. A normal confessor may not be able to use such a weapon effectively (has it cause it looks tough, or makes him feel safe). That same weapon talent is avaible to rank 1 clerics as well for 100 XP (so 150 XP as an elite advance).

2. I would assume, much as all starting skills and talents for all the standard 8 careers are listed as rank 1 advances for 100 XP each, so should all the advances for a alternate carrer rank that replaces said starting skills and talents. So I would allow a character who entered confesor (or other similar style career rank) to purchase those starting skills (such as Coomon Lore (Imperial Creed) and Interrogation and so forth) for 100 XP, or to balance it with missed rank elite advances, 150 XP.

3. (you didnt have a 3, but Im addressing the Supine Income level notions mentioned in your opening). Your income level does not affect starting money. That is generated on table 1-9 on page 28-29 of Dark Heresy. Monthly income is handled on page 124 table 5-1 and 5-2. So a cleric still starts with 300+5D10 thrones and a Arbitrator with 50+2D10. Double if of noble origin.

I'm *just* getting a look at BoM and how it may fit into the game I'm running...

With the faith system, I'm not seeing any sort of counterbalance. What I mean: Psykers have to beat their threshhold, then worry about potential perils. I don't see any such potential risks for faith talents, aside from that you could use up (spend) all your fate points pretty easily...but all character types have that. And you are limited to using them only a couple of times per session (which may be too often, yes). Is there something I'm just not seeing that actually poses a risk to the character?

Also...

I've come across some things I can't seem to trace back, and would appreciate a point or two in the right direction...and it sounds like you guys have read through the book pretty closely.

Under Seraphim, a Hit and Run talent is listed, but I can't locate a description in either BoM or the DH core book. What does that talent actually do?

Well, I found Hit and Run...right in front of my nose...

But I'd still like to hear ideas on counterbalance.

While I am still undecided on the faith powers, psychic powers are much more powerful. No faith power is going to blow up a tank. Maybe at low ranks they might be comparable, but in that case the faithful is going to be spending 300 XP per power (+400 if Pure Faith has to be bought first), while the psyker gets a bunch for free. That is, if I am a Rank 3 Confessor and I want two faith powers, I'm going to have had to spend all of my 1000 XP on them.

Plus, the number of fate points available tends to go down with time. When characters have 1 Fate Point, this is not so impressive.

I really don't think there is a balance issue with the new Faith system - sure, Psyker powers are more impressive, but they also have huge drawbacks that make you think thrice before using them. What has been criticized a lot is that there seems to have been some sort of "inflation" on Faith talents making them available to a much bigger group of character types, as well as the possibility to trigger one miracle after another as if the character would be a spellslinger from D&D, provided they have a large enough pool of Fate Points. Some of the effects of these talents also fall very short compared to how they were described in the fluff - personally, I'd rather have them be more effective but happen less often, basically making them appear a bit more special rather than a set of group buffs you pull off every session.

For my part, I don't really mean "balance" as game balance, one type of character being more or less powerful than another. Rather, I'm wondering what potential risks there are to the Faithful character for using the faith talents, things that might make them think twice about using the talents. (Psykers risk perils of the warp, for example.) I see use of fate points, but is there something else I'm not seeing?

My inclination as a GM is to say that any faith talent used for personal gain or used frivolously angers the Emperor and therefore runs a risk of retribution, now or at an unknown point in the future.

I also don't see any sort of test that must be passed for the power to work (like the WP test for Psykers). That's a tad hard to believe, that miracles could be automatic and repetative.

I agree that these seem way too chinzy, both in feel and ease of access during game plan. Miracles should be a big deal, not routine. That said, I'm glad they are at least addressing the topic of the Emperor's blessing upon his faithful.

Hmm, some interesting points there...

Yes, in a way, Faith Talents are really just "purchaseable additional options to spend Fate Points on" - and it's not like the already existing dice-rerolls or the usage of FP to regain Wounds has any negative side-effects aside from temporarily loosing the Fate Point.

I think reworking the system to include some sort of test would have both advantages and disadvantage. On the one hand it would make miracles less predictable, whilst on the other it might suck to "waste" one of those precious few Fate Points due to a bad roll, and it would suck even more when you have saved up your FP for that one special moment where your character could really shine and then ... nothing happens. That said, on some grimdark level I suppose there's nothing wrong with such setbacks, as they make the game feel more risky and success more special.

A compromise could be rolling for the efficiency of the effect, rather than if it would occur at all, so that you at least gain some small bonus even when botching the roll. Alternatively, one could de-couple the entire Faith system from the Fate Points and simply allow a character to roll for Faith Talents once per encounter or session, or something like that.

I've actually thought about how the composition of the group could be incorporated into the use of Faith Talents, such as multiple characters with the Pure Faith talent somehow increasing either the effect or the chance at which a miracle might occur, somewhat similar to how Acts of Faith get pulled off in the Tabletop (where you roll against squad size for success/failure, modified by certain types of characters or items) ...

Someone also suggested rolling against the pool of Corruption Points when using a Faith Talent, though it seems odd to me that a newly inducted Novice should be just as or even more adept than a Veteran Superior. In a way, this makes me think that the Corruption counter should go in both ways, with a negative value being called Purity Points or something like that - simply for characters that have not given in to what they experienced, but had their resolve and faith steeled beyond the Imperial norm.

As for your inclination regarding FP used for personal gain, that is totally understandable. I would even say that when a character is aware of this, the Faith Talent would not work at all. In fact, the character might actually loose the Pure Faith talent, because obviously his or her perception and morals became corrupted. You cannot do Faith Talents without an extraordinarily massive amount of faith, after all. What I mean is that rather than the power coming from the Emperor, I think a character's faith (and thus his ability to do miracles) is governed and checked by his own conscience. As long as the character believes he is right, his zeal will give him strength. Once the character starts to doubt, however ... crisis of faith, etc.

Lynata said:

A Novice won't have any faith talents unless they spent all of their 400 XP on one.

bogi_khaosa said:

So it's possible.

But really, it was just an example - every new character (apart from some special background packages) starts with 0 Corruption Points, but aside from one or two general talents (such as Pure Faith) there is no real value keeping track of how pure a character actually is. You can't go below the 0, which makes the extremely faithful and zealous similar to ... well, normal people.

A negative value of CP (or positive PP, if you will) could serve both as some sort of limited protection against corruption (to become corrupted you'd first have to undergo a crisis of faith) as well as something to test against when rolling for Faith Talents. In addition, it would transform Corruption (and Purity) Points from a one-way spiral of doom into some sort of "morale bar" - only that it'd be more about the grey zones of zeal/taint rather than good/evil, and likely include some "points of no return" either way.

Meh, too big a change to the existing system, I guess. But still, might have been an interesting concept.

Agree with everything said in this thread. But if you weaken the BoM Faith Talents, remember to reduce the cost appropriately too.

Here's my suggestion:

Salvation Demands Sacrifice: Spending a FP on BoM Faith Talents requires a Fel or WP test at Hellish (-60) difficulty with a +10 bonus for every point of Wound lost. Wounds lost in combat, self flagellation and every point of critical damage taken also counts to this total. This test and any self injuring counts a reaction or half action.

If the test fails, the FP count as spent anyway.

Burning FP for Faith talents however requires no test and works as normal.

Temptation: Gain Corruption Points in lieu of Wounds or FP.

guest469 said:

I like this,

Bumpity-bump.

OK, I was going through the faith powers for an upcoming game, and I havd changed my mind about them not being overpowered.

These Wrath of the Munchkin powers last for a whole encounter/combat, right? So you and all of your allies do +1d5 damage, or have Unnatural Characteristics, for a whole combat? For a mere 200xp in some cases?

Soulstorm can kill anything that is corrupt with no seeming way to defend against it. High Sorcerer Snigle has 100 Corruption Points and is blessed by the Dark Gods. A veteran of centuries of darkness, he is felled by Abbott Fred, the Rank 4 Confessor who waves his hand and does 100 Wounds to him.

Something is very wrong here. Please tell me that I'm missing something somewhere.

As noted under "Duration" on p. 101, Faith talents last for the duration of the entire combat/encounter - with the exception of those that deal damage or heal wounds.

As for Soulstorm - well, inflicts friendly fire, but I would agree that no damage cap is "a bit" weird. At the same time, I find it odd that it has no effect on powerful daemons whatsoever. It seems that the scaling goes somewhat like "medium damage to low level enemies" -> "either wtfbbqpwnage or nothing at all to high level enemies" (lots of CP or big daemons). Definitively something I'd change.

Some of these talents seem very OP (like Soulstorm) whilst others seem next to useless (Divine Guidance). I also just noticed how many faith talents people can actually buy per rank and how insanely fast you can get to the top tier powers. Wow. I am also still sceptical to the idea of allowing any kind of character to benefit from a Faith talent's "group buff" regardless of the individual's own religious stance or even amount of corruption.

I don't really see a problem with either the additional 1d5 melee damage (an additional ~2.5 dmg is really not that much compared to most later weapons) or the Unnatural stats, though. The melee bonus from Unnatural Strength is not that overpowering when you keep the drawbacks in mind (even if the characters become potential close combat monsters, a clever opponent will simply outrun them and keep hurling ranged attacks at the group).

If anything, I think the +1d5 melee damage for a single attack is too short. Personally, I'd make this talent's duration depend on the character's willpower bonus or something like that.

That said, I also remain adamant that faith talents should not be used so much as the system currently allows. "Miracles" should be powerful. But they should also be rare.

Lynata said:

I hope this is the case, but Wrath of the Munchkins adds damage, it doesn't do it.

EDIT: This book really needs an errata. I don't want to sounds like a whiner, but this is the first FFG product I've seen that I've had a negative reaction to. Everything else I've loved, aber hier etwas ist scheisslich.

bogi_khaosa said:

Uh Corrution points are intended for PC's really. Sorcerer Sniggle doesn't have a corruption rating. Look at the Witch in the antagonist section of DH they don't have any despite being a follower steeped in the lore of the Dark Powers. Besides even if he did he would only have to pass a challenging willpower test (+0) to avoid it. So basically Sorceror Sniggle is likely to take 1d10 points of damage and Abbot Fred passes out likley leaving him in quite a pickle.

andrewm9 said:

CPs are listed for NPCs in several places.

bogi_khaosa said:

Care to be specific? There is not a single example of that in Disciples of the Dark Gods where you might expect that to be prevalent. Master Zentos Cyran on p143 of that book has no corruption listed and he has a dark pact and familiar to boot. The main villain of Damned Cities also has no corruption listed and he practices sorcery. My point is that NPC's don't get corruption. They are mutants, sorcerors, or whatever with all the drawbacks and limiations that come with the benefits just no corruption points.

On the other hand, I would find it strange if Imperial player characters get punished more devastating for their corruption than a mutated Chaos sorcerer.

I wouldn't expect them to run around with "100 CP" or something like that, but surely there would have to be some guidance value that is considered the norm?

andrewm9 said:

There are in Creatures Anathema. Archimedes Noxt has 49. Moreover, there are NPCs that have Talents that only make sense if you can gain Corruption Points (like Armour of Contempt). Both RT and DW (different games I know) specifically talk about NPCs gaining CPs.

If CPs were only for PCs, it wouldn't really make a difference, because then you would just have NPC Father Bob annihilating a PC radical Inquisitor.

On the other hand, I would find it strange if Imperial player characters get punished more devastating for their corruption than a mutated Chaos sorcerer.

I wouldn't expect them to run around with "100 CP" or something like that, but surely there would have to be some guidance value that is considered the norm?

Yeah. This power seems to work effectively only on player characters whi have gone bad.

bogi_khaosa said:

Interesting. I don't typically look at Creatures Anathema so I've failed to notice that. Suffice to say that I have looked at many of the books and many NPC's and none of those have had corruption points. In any case I based my conclusion of the DH rule book. Page 238 says under Corruption and the Common Citizen; "The rules for Corruption presented here are for use with Player Characters; Acolytes are men and women of destiny and purpose—exactly the sort of people that the Ruinous Powers seek to slowly corrupt and toy with. For most, the touch of Chaos brings summary destruction, madness, mutation and death." I realize someone else's interpretation of those lines may be different than mine but I take it to mean that corruption points and thier tracking are for PC's alone.

As for NPC stat blocks, these are the same stat blocks which occasionally do not give the proficiency with the weapons they use right? Soul Storm just is a terrible power anyway. Why anyone would use it I have no idea since it knocks you unsconcious.