What do you guys think of the BoM book? I haven't really made up my mind yet, but the faith powers kind of leave a bad taste in my mouth.

They've made them into DnD cleric spells. You're shooting light out of your eyes and so forth. Before it was never clear whether faith was just fervent faith or actually some kind of divine power. Now you're manifetsing actual physical light. I could see this if it was really really rare, a truly miraculous occurance, but you can pop these things off 3-4 times a session given enough Fate Points.

Also the sidebar on Clerics (which is defined as what? Somebody in the Cleric career path? Why should he be able to do these things if he has 90 CPs, and somebody who knows everything he does and has greater faith can't?) is poorly implemented. There should be some idea of how long these rituals take. As it is a cleric can holify his weapon for one encounter, then spend 5 minutes doing it again, then another encounter, etc.

AND the biggee: ability to use faith powers and True Faith is no linger limited by Corruption Points. You can have 99 CPs and be a servant of Nurgle and use faith powers.

Am I missing something?

Well, yeah. In my personal opinion, BoM does a lot of stuff right that IH did wrong, but also does a lot of stuff wrong that IH got right. The former would apply to how Faith Talents were handled, primarily regarding the requirements (corruption points) and the general feeling of "inflation" (both in number of powers as well as who can use them). A few of the Acts of Faith also seem pretty weak (either in duration or effect - just compare BoM's Divine Guidance to how awesome it is in the TT), and I dislike the idea of balancing that with being able to trigger them more often - the other way around would seem better to me to make miracles "more special" and prevent characters from turning into spell machines or being shoehorned into a position where they are expected to "buff" their group for every encounter.

The Services sidebar and the duration of rituals I see less as an issue, as that's something that could easily be regulated by the GM. The text says the Cleric has to expend the material cost, which means to me he will require access to such paraphernalia as holy water, incense, scripture, wax and seals etc. Whilst I agree that some form of "time window" for rituals would have been nice, that's something you could easily make up yourself just by reading the descriptions. Personally, I'd say about an hour is a good rough guess, with the exception of the Sanctification where I'd say 1d5 hours or more. I would also have some of the services require to be done on holy ground (shrine, chapel, temple, cathedral, ...).

I'm thinking the same

I lost my faith in DH over BoM.

Lynata said:

Fixing myself. >_<

I also miss Novice ranks. That said, house rules ftw.

The figure "20 CPs" is used in the rules a lot as a threshold of sorts. which makes me think that that was a CP cutoff point they had intended to use to define "faithful" (people who can use or receive beneficial effects from faith talents) but then forgot about.

I would be quite happy with current faith system as presented in BoM if only these talents were triggered by mechanic similiar to Deathwatch Demaneurs so yes, there are miracles (are they:P) in 40k, but in game they should be represented by some strong roleplaying.

TorogTarkdacil said:

How dose DW Demeanors work and do you have any ideas on how a simmilar system copuld be used for Faith Talents/Miracles in DH? Your statment intrigues me but I lack the sources to look into it my self :-(

Basically they are descriptors which describe something iconic about their Chapter or a simple descriptor of their personality (you get one Chapter one and a Personal one). Every session you can activate one (only one can be used per session) and it works like a fate point (re-roll, extra degree of success, heal damage etc). You are meant to describe how the demeanor is relevant and how you're character is acting (in a manner appropriate to the Demeanor). If the GM thinks is is particularly well roleplayed he can boost it so the fate point is twice as effective (heals 2 dice of damage, adds two degrees of success etc).

Personally I am not keen on them (they see rare use in the games I have played) as they are very... wishy washy and vague. I prefer roleplay awards (ie benefits to the player due to playing their character well) being much more down to the GM's personal preference, and I prefer my rule defined mechanical benefits to be more clearly defined on how and where you get them.

Mhm, yeah. It is my understanding that the usage of Faith Talents should come with some strong roleplaying by default (it is, after all, supposed to be a miracle ). Demeanours, from how I've understood them, are basically nothing else than a free Fate Point that comes with some requirements (such as the situation having to be relevant to the Marine's Chapter culture et cetera), so nothing would really change for the application (unless your group has been churning out miracles like announcing every other test).

I like the idea of limiting Faith Talents, though, even if I'm not quite sure about the "how" yet...

Is this thing going to get an errata so we can figure out if the corruption point issue is an oversight?

As a GM, I would simply impose a corruption limit on faith in most circumstances. I'll admit that I have not had a chance to buy Blood of Martyrs yet ( very limited game budget due to wife, kid, and mortgage .), so I am just going on the gereral concept. Here's something to chew on though; the Chaos fluff often has characters who blindly slide into corruption. How about a corrupt character whose Faith manifestations are unknowingly fueled by the Dark Powers? Could make for an interesting adversary, possibly even causing doubt in some of the PCs. "Is he really a heretic? Those look like miracles to me!"

Game didnt really need another "magic system", which was in my objective criticism of BOM when I got it. That when you start turning the God Emperor's miracles into stuff PC's can do by spending a fate point. They cease to be miracles that might seriously alter a players perspective of the Ecclesiarchy from being fuddy-duddy, no fun irritations- turning them into becoming a true believer when they happen and instead, they're just another game mechanic.

bogi_khaosa said:

In short, FFG hates Dark Heresy.

I may have to kick their asses.

On second thought, maybe this isn't that bad. Fate Points are finite and dwindle to zero over time, and every point used on a Faith Power means one not used for something else.

I don't think any of the real complaints about the system are about it being "overpowered" or anything, just that it doesn't have the right feel for what Dark Heresy represents; they are too obvious and flashy (there is no ambiguity if it is some special power or purely a result of the determination and self-belief that Faith gives you) they are too widely available(corruption points no longer prevent their use, pretty much every career can get them) and they are too easily used. The problem is the feel of the system, not that the system is overpowered.

I just realized a further balancing issue with the faith powers.

In theory, an Arbitrator, Cleric, or Assassin can get them. However, assuming you don't allow them as Elite Advancements, to get them your income level drops to Supine, except in the case of the Arch-Exorcist -- and he's not available until Rank 7.

I noticed something else. I was building an Arbitrator using the Confessor Alternate Rank, and realized two things:

1. If you go with Confessor at Rank 1, you do not get the Weapon Proficiency required to use your pistol, and due to having no money can't generally buy a Basic weapon.

2. If you go Confessor after Rank 1, Alternate Rank does not give you the Lore (Imperial Creed and Ecclesiarchy) skills that should logically be available.

If you don't like the Faith Powers (their very concept and/or mechanics), and you're the GM, don't allow players to use them I guess?? Or maybe impose a limit on how many they can have?

I don't get how the game system is ruined because of one source book that states quite clearly that the material in it is for more intensely religious campaigns. I mean, in a similar fashion, just because the Radical's Handbook exists, it doesn't mean that you have to bloody use all of the material in it.

Are you worried that your players are gonna rampantly purchase all of these abilities regardless of what you say?

Necrozius said:

While you're quite correct all around, I don't think the issue a lot of folks have with the Faith powers as presented in BoM have anything at all to do with their effectiveness, lack of effectiveness, if they break the game, if they don't break the game, or anything of the sort. The main complaint is simply how they feel.

It takes the miraculous and sublime and presents it as a shopping-list of spells to sling about at ones leisure. What is presented, background-wise, as being incredibly rare and well, miraculous and sublime, is reduced to something that is dependable, repeatable, and easily gotten -it turns faith into a science. It also cheapens more intensely religious campaigns that try to look into matters of Imperial Faith by turning said faith into another lasgun -you know what it can and can't do, you know how well it dose it's thing, and you know how much it costs. Now it's just a matter of whether you shoot the heretic first then have a miracle happen or have the miracle happen first, then shoot the heretic -hard tactical decisions for any truly pious Confessor.

True, a GM can chose to not allow them into his or her game quite easily, but that's not the problem some voiced. It's a matter of this potentially being a sign of what's to become of the DH line in the future, a future many feel is too far removed from the core feel of DH.

Graver has centered the problem.

Miracles should be rare. Very rare.

I'd be careful about the "very rare" part - that's the kind of stuff that I see people burning faith points for. Something like the Litany of Divine Guidance as represented in the tabletop or the novels, however? The prayer itself is common practice - though you could argue that an increase of accuracy (which I would represent as a penetration bonus for the RPG) isn't exactly a miracle but more like "very good luck". On the other hand, things like these can easily create miracles depending on what is achieved through it ...

I'd still limit it somehow, though. Say once per session, or maybe once per encounter.

The small number of Fate Points already goes a long way to have a similar effect, but churning out 3-4 "spells" in a single encounter is still an option. And that shouldn't be.

Ahh yeah I can understand the point of view now. I can now see why these rules sort of trivialize the concept of miracles and/or sacrifice.

Yeah I'd definitely impose some restrictions on their availability and/or use. The very concept of these Faith Powers shouldn't be taken for granted, or as a simple game mechanic to be exploited.

To play Devil's Advocate, this isn't really all that far from how people in the Middle Ages viewed miracles. People were marching off to be cured by Saint So-and-So's thighbone on a regular basis and the presence of holy people was supposed to have quasimagical effects etc.

What REALLY bugs me is the loss of the CP cap. To do this stuff you should have to be pure. (Maybe require a d100 roll of less than 100-whatever CPs you have?

I suppose that part of the reasoning is that some sources of Corruption are unavoidable if you're a Witch or Daemon Hunter. Plain old exposure over the years and even the most devout cleric or sororitas will accrue some. Maybe a lot.