I guess this only relates to Old Bear Mormont right now...

In a melee game, when do you trigger OBM's response? Right when plots are revealed, before titles? or just before they start resolving? or as they resolve, but only as the one you want to cancel is resolving...

lets say there is a valar morghulis resolving before a mad kings legacy... is it possible to cancel the later?

Also Golden tooth mines... does the first player decide the order of this in amongst the 'when revealed' plots? or does it go off right as they are revealed(before titles), or after... We have been playing that it comes after everything, but im not sure why...

Cheers.

The timing flowchart in the FAQ tells us that resolving the "when revealed" plot effects is a framework action that takes place after the player with the highest initiative has appointed the First Player. The resolve in the order determined by the First Player, and each "when revealed" effect has its own opportunity to be cancelled, so you can pick which "when revealed" effect you want to cancel.

Golden Tooth Mines resolves as a passive effect to the framework event "choose and reveal plot cards" before other framework events (count initiative, determine first player, resolve "when revealed" effects) take place.

I suggest you have a look at the FAQ, specifically the timing flowcharts. It'll probably answer many question you may still have or might have in the future. The FAQ is available in the Support section of this website.

Ok, so it is as each plot is resolved.. and thus in my given example, you wouldn't be able to cancel mad kings legacy unless he is saved from Valar Morghulis first... Only because he would already be moribund, and could not satisfy the cost of his triggered response...right?

Ah, I just realized now what you were asking. Indeed, if Mormont is already moribund because of Valar he cannot be killed again to pay the cost of his ability to cancel a subsequently resolving plot.

oshi said:

There are a couple of problems with this interpretation of the Plot Phase window here.

Saturnine said:

• (2.2) Plot Effect Resolution
• The first player determines the order in which all "when revealed" plot effects are resolved. "When revealed" plot effects are essentially self-referential passive effects that initiate in response to the revealing of the plot card with the "when revealed" effect. They are resolved (in the order determined by the first player) during step 4 of the action window in which the plot card was revealed. All "when revealed" plot effects must resolve before any other passive effects initiated by the revealing of a plot card(s) are resolved.

So "when revealed" plot text resolves as a passive effect - in Step 4 of that action window.

Saturnine said:

As in all framework action windows, all of the listed framework events take place before passive effects or Responses to any of them can be used/initiated. You do not draw the card for Golden Tooth Mines until after the First Player is determined and (as further clarified in the entry quoted above) plots are resolved. All of those things happen in Steps 1-3 (or before everything else in 4 in the case of "when revealed" text); no passive, including Golden Tooth Mines, happens until Step 4. You cannot resolve passive effects, or play Responses, to "reveal a plot card" until after all the other framework events in that window are complete.

It's the same reason you don't get to play a Response to winning/losing a challenge until after claim, unopposed, and Renown are all complete.

*blush* You are absolutely right, ktom (duh!). My eyes deceived me when I was looking at the framework action flowchart into thinking the arrow going up from step 4 led to step 1. I thought something was off, but I was in a hurry so I just spread falsehoods.

Also thanks for pointing out the relevant FAQ entry regarding the "when revealed" effects. The flowchart is kind of misleading then by listing it as a framework event, no?

In the middle titles have to be chosen though, before the When Revealed effects resolve and after First Player is determined (right?)

Mathias Fricot said:

ktom said:

This is one of those rulings that has seemed to reverse itself a couple of times... or at least my and several other people's memories seem to think so. In the middle of the melee portion of the Iowa regional the previous weekend, Erick corrected us on our belief, which is in accordance with your answer, ktom.

I did write Nate:

Also, we once again had confusion during the melee about a couple rulings, the only one I can remember off the top of my head being during Plot Phase:

Player Actions > Reveal Plots > Count Initiative > Determine First Player > !A! Select Titles or !B! Resolve Plots > !C! Plot passives (GTM) & Responses (Pycelle) > Player Actions

Most of us had been playing Titles then Plots... and Erick corrected us to the reverse. If that's the case, I just wanted to verify that you'd see those extra cards before you decided on the Titles. And seriously, Pycelle needs to get reigned in. i love the feel of a 26 card hand, but I don't htink everyone needs to start playing RBD in Melee. Andrew & I both had him out (Double & Triple duped, respectively) on turn one, and between plots, and Andrews Jeyne Westerling, Wolf Dreams & Winterfell Kennels there was something revolting happening. Katie RBD'd him on turn 3 when I had 12 and he had 13... He played brilliantly and one, with a cheaper character base and a well timed Power of Blood to preserve his Blackfish, Robb & Sansa ( not that they needed it, they were duped, double duped and Nymeria'd respectively. He also had a Cat o' the Canals and Aemon, so after Marshalling that turn he had 9 characters: including Jorah, Old Nan, a Carrion Bird and Hodor. But it looked glorious.

And here's his response:

"Plots are described on page 11 of the rulebook. Step one should be resolved in its entirety (including resolving "when revealed effects," passives like Golden Tooth Mines, playing responses, etc.) before proceeding to step 2.

Phase 1: Plot

The plot phase is played in two steps:

1. Choose and reveal plot cards

2. Select Titles"

OK so what is true?

The game manual and FAQ does not explicitly state that titles are chosen before plot effects resolve. It simply says that Titles are Step 2.

The flow chart in FAQ 2.3 does not mention anything about titles either so I do not know what is correct except for that kotm says that it is titles are chosen before plot effects.

Maester_LUke said:

I found multiple posts supporting "Reveal Plots -> Determine FIRST player -> Select Titles -> Resolve Plot effects" which I took to be the actual ruling.

Does this mean that "Reveal Plots -> Determine FIRST player -> Resolve Plot effects -> Select Titles" is the ultimate ruling?

The order can be important if the Plot effects involve choosing another player to do something helpful or harmful.

Bomb said:

This is the ruling that came from Nate at FFG according to LUke. So it is the ultimate ruling to go with. Whether it is a change in "official" interpretation, or the way it has always been - but simply the first time FFG has specifically ruled on it (differently than how many players were playing it) - I'm not sure.

Bomb said:

Again, from the e-mail:

"Plots are described on page 11 of the rulebook. Step one should be resolved in its entirety (including resolving "when revealed effects," passives like Golden Tooth Mines, playing responses, etc.) before proceeding to step 2."

Where Step 1 = Choose and reveal plots and Step 2 = Select Titles.

So you do get to draw your cards from plot effect, Golden Tooth Mines, or reveal them from Grand Maester Pycelle (core) before deciding whether you want the Master of Laws.

Flowchart-wise, this means that in Melee, a second framework action window (with the single framework event "Starting with the First Player, choose Multiplayer Titles") is inserted in the Plot Phase between the "reveal plots" window and the post-plot player action window.

Thank you for the confirmation.

Being new on the forums, it is not entirely clear what are correct rulings and what are not. I do not know who can provide official stances or not. The name Nate through hearsay doesn't necessarily instill confidence when I had read multiple posts confirming something different. At least what was just posted supports the manual, but that doesn't necessarily mean the manual provides enough clarity, otherwise the FAQs wouldn't be necessary.

My apologies for the confusion.

Bomb said:

Bomb said:

ktom said:

The only real way is to ask FFG to update FAQ. ~Anyway, why would anyone care about rules if FFG doesn't care?

Once in a while we get an incredibly unselfish person to come these thread for the most recently answered questions... and either get that thread stickied or just regularly "bumped" with the newest answers. But rarely.