Hi all,

My group is about to start its third RtL session. The previous two sessions have ended in decisive hero victories. All players are very experienced, including the overlord. Last game the OL was leading by at least 150 conquest when the final battle started. His Great Wyrm will almost all upgrades died in two turns with no hero deaths. The first session was basically the same. We are seeing the OL just getting crushed by the end, no matter what the conquest is. We don't use any broken combos: no Gauntlets+Rapid Fire, no Telekenisis at all, and no Nanok, Talia, or Silouette. The monsters just die too quickly at gold level campaign. At the start of a new dungeon with max fatigue upgrades the heroes can move into any position they want (even if they get trapped) and get at least one attack immediately (if not a full battle). By the time the overlord gets his first turn he has less than half his monsters remaining, and certainly no master monsters unless he got an undying roll to succeed.

Now with ToI's feat cards it's probably only going to be worse. We are looking for a way to give the OL a boost. Here are a few options we came up with:

1. Regarding the feat cards, we can make them cost fatigue to play. Numbers thrown about were 3 fatigue for feat cards that have only one copy, 2 fatigue for two copies, and 1 fatigue for three copies. Or, they could cost 0 fatigue at copper level, 1 at silver, and 2 at gold.

2. Give the OL a free monster upgrade at silver and gold campaign levels. This upgrade cannot be used to do the "super" monster upgrade. For example, if Beasts are at silver and the campaign reaches silver, the OL will get to upgrade either his Humaniods or Eldritch to silver for free, but he would have to pay to upgrade his Beasts to gold.

What do you think? Do you think these choices will be too powerful for the OL, or will they not make much of a difference (in which case something more drastic might be needed). Keep in mind this is not a thread about how to play better as the OL, so don't give advice on beating the heroes. I'm just looking for insight on how these suggestions (especially #2) would affect the game, and make sure we have a good idea of their impact.

Thanks!

The Feats for Fatigue thing doesn't sound bad to me.

Supposedly in the next FAQ the Avatar will have access to Ready orders (except Rest) so I'm going to be interested to see how that works since I'm hoping the FAQ will be out before I hit that point in my game. I'll probably do that anyways since my players won't mind.

I could go either way on the free upgrade for Gold but I'm not sure about Silver.

How about reducing the cost the flip over the eyes to 10? I know this doesn't help the final battle but it may help slow the heroes down on the rest of the dungeon.

I also think spawn and trap treachery costs need to be reduced.

I think upgrading monster costs should be reduced by 5 across the board but I like the 2 "free" upgrades idea.

The main issue is once you get to the final batle you find descent isn't really built for a many on one battle. The OL just doesn't have enough actions to do anything signficant.

Hm, since Fatigue seems to be such a big influence on the gold level campaign, an entirely unqualified and untested idea of mine - maybe the fatigue upgrades should just add 3 fatigue each, or maybe even 2 each? Would that help by adding tactical options for the Overlord?

The climactic battle, I think the idea of house ruling that all heroes' orders reset when it happens makes sense, since the Overlord's powers and all are reset as well. It's not the big change that fixes everything, but a small step in the right direction, from what I've read.

SkittlesAreYum said:

Well, just because they came in the box, doesn't mean you must use them. If you think the heroes are already powerfull enough, why give them more power? From reading here it seems that the feat cards are better suited for the base game not RtL.

Since OL got move CT the only thing that has to be balanced is final combat. The main problem now, OL offten has no chance in final combat so you should try to win before that. However you can change something for final combat. Allow OL to use treat for avatar, allow to keep Powers in game, allow to use Orders, may be some more advantage. This way OL should have some chance.

haslo said:

I just realized my suggestion was even less qualified than I had thought, since fatigue upgrades just add 2 fatigue each already

You seem to have the misguided belief that the OL should stand a chance in the final battle. I don't see that as the case. As the OL you have to get a plot / talimar win in copper / silver / early gold. Otherwise late gold is a victory lap for the heroes as a reward for surviving this long. The final battle is just so that they can demonstrate how far the heroes have come since their copper days. If you want to win as the OL you have to make use of your plot (I consider the tattoo plot to be a roll 2 dice when razing talimar plot, not a tattoo the heroes and roll for control once before dieing plot).

So why do you even play the last stand if its pointless? I dont like the idea of a pre defined outcome.

Use CBs and dark relics to kill their weapons. If they loose their main damage dealing capabilities it gives you a little chance.

I measure my victories not in number but by the strength of my opponent.

Does the final fight have to at least look close? If you want the Heroes to auto win after entering the lair why bother even doing it? Why not just say you invade and kill the OL?

If you think a final fight is needed then it must be close. You can say the heroes "should win" I may even agree with that design goal but the fight needs to be close.

granor said:

That's the spirit I am not very qualified to comment gold level, as all our campaigns end in heroes giving up when razing Tamalir seems a sure thing, or in the avatar giving up when it appears that his lieutenants are no more able to do so at silver. Here are some of the houserules we use:

- Heroes cannot use more fatigue to move than their base movement. It helps make faster heroes...faster, and mitigate the 1 turn dungeon clearing silver thing.

-Feat hand size is limited to 1 (2 for the hero with 2 feats): Heroes need to make some sacrifices to keep the counterspell card, but is is not enough to balance feats.

-Nanok armor is limited to 4+campaign level

-After the final hero training at Tamalir, any excess CT the avatar has over the hero is added as starting CT for the final dungeon

-Avatar can buy upgrades at 150% of the regular price with the CT won against the heroes in the final dungeo

- 4 square melee monsters get +1 damage/campaign level

-If a side is 20% and 20 XP behind, it can pick 2 dungeon levels and chose 1.

once the total conquest level reaches 100, every leader gets upgraded to silver

OL cannot upgrade any monster to gold before the total conquest level reaches 250. At 275, every dungeon leader gets upgraded to gold. At 450, they are all upgraded to diamond.

All lone monster treachery spawn now give 1 master monster + 1 normal one (except for the troll one).

The lone golem spawn cost has been reduced to 1 treachery (and it gives 1 normal and 1 master monster).

the normal(non treachery) dark priest spawn only gets you 2 normal dark priests

multiple square monsters can be spawned as long as 1 of their square cannot be seen by heroes

heroes throw one dice/web token while webbed. If they successfully remove them, they can act normally, otherwise, they may spend their 2 actions trying to remove the web tokens, which allows them to throw their melee dices to remove web.

spiritwalker has range 6 but costs 1 fatigue when used. Unmovable costs 1 fatigue. Rapid fire allows one extra attack per normal (non rapid fired) attack.

Crushing blow costs 2 treachery and refunds 50% of the item price (as a merchant discount).

Heroes' winrate has been 100% with feats (out of 2 games), and 33% without feats (the two times the OL won, he had upgraded Eldritch).

Only balance for the OL : Win the game at Copper stage.

If the game goes on to Silver and then the final battle you are busted.

Crush them where they are at their weakest with no upgraded tools nor skills from expansions. Siege Tamalir and win the game.

Then with the now even score you can have them have fun again with a longer game.

RtL is not again hitting the table with our group because it is totally unbalanced and cannot be. You can balance a quest, you cant balance a campaign. You can have fun playing an unbalanced dog for 3 hours, you cant playing for 3 weeks...

Ivan Kerensky said:

So true, so true. Maybe we should really rewrite the RTL rules and items to balance it all out. I know its a major task, but a fun one! On the other hand: Anyone knows of any big RTL modifications that aim to balance it? Dont wanna re invent the wheel

Well, it seems the OL only needs to be boosted a little bit at the beggining of every new level. So why not trying this:

Give the OL some more free conquest (like the 15 points at the beggining of the game) at the beggining of the silver and gold level. He should be forced to use them inmediately (along with any other conquest points he has) to buy any kind of upgrades.

Another possibility is to lower the required thread for the reinformence market as the new levels are reached, and not use it at all during the 5 levels of the final battle.

I really hope that a new expansion balances this issue and allows the OL to use some new power to compensate for the feat cards. Something that also clarifies how the special heroes from ToI are supposed to be used in RtL.

I'm just going to chime in with my general feeling that Feats were not designed nor intended to be used with RTL- the designer Kevin Wilson stated as much. Use them at your own discretion with RTL, just keep in mind that the OL gets hosed by Feats in RTL without severe restrictions on them.

Oboewan said:

While I agree that this is true. I feel the feat mechanic is too good to simply remove or reduce to mear presents in RTL and would like to see the OL compensated and have it integrated fully into the RTL game.

Not everything that works in Vanilla Descent makes sense in RtL.

Badend said:

You see, in that case, you're saying that the 30XP plot upgrade is useless, and the 0XP plot card you start with is all-important! That to me says that there are balance issues.

If the final epic battle with the Avatar was supposed to be a gimme for the heroes, why would the designers have spent what is obviously a lot of time making sure the final dungeon levels were each unique, creative, and themed to the Avatar? Why not say "If the overlord hasn't won by the end of gold, the heroes win"?

If it is agreed that the final battle (and indeed, all of gold level, from the sounds of it) presents no challenge to the heroes, I think you should make it so. Ultimately you're playing the game to have fun, right? If the final battle isn't fun, make some changes so that it is!

Forgive the double post... I was just thinking that one simple upgrade for the Avatars would be to make it so that heroes cannot be made immune to any ability or effect caused by the Avatar (i.e. no ironskin to make the hero completely invulnerable to the Sorcerer's attacks, no immunity to the Spider Queen's web tokens, etc.)

The group i play in are considering making it so that the Overlord has the ability like in encouters to use threat for extra movement and dice. If that doesn't work maybe in the next one well add the Lieutenant ability of having a handful of cards based on treachery as well. But then we play for fun and want the campaign to last the distance, rather than aiming to raze tamalir at the earliest opportunity.

2 quick points:

The final battle is not always a gimme for the players. A well upgraded sorceror is pretty nasty (+100 health, surges are voided).

Balance in this game is a funny thing. You could argue (and most seem to assume) that it means a 50/50 win rate for the heroes. But you could argue just as convincingly that it should be 20/80. The Overlord is only one of 5 players and his win chance should reflect that. On balance, a game that pits four against one needs to favor the 4 and a victory by the OL should feel pretty rewarding.

so like

Unstoppable Horror
Upgrade - Any Avatar
30 CT
Choose 1 of your attack abilities. This ability is not affected by any immunities any hero might have, and any effect tokens dealt by this ability cannot be prevented/discarded by immunity to effect tokens.

or something?

In addition to my changes that affect only the Avatar fight, I've also been working on a set of rules that nudge the overall campaign balance such that the game is more fun for the Overlord in the late game (and he still has a chance of winning), but reducing his chances of a super-early knock-out win. While it's difficult to experimentally test changes that affect the entire campaign as thoroughly as I would like, I've run part of one full campaign and several single-dungeon experiments with them and so far I'm pretty pleased with the results. If your goal is to tweak the overall game balance towards a less one-sided Avatar fight but still keep the game balanced overall (by reducing the OL's chance at a Tamalir raze), then you may want to consider these changes.

Pro-Overlord changes:

1. Secret Master Training: There is no longer a 'choice' between health and fatigue. Each session of Secret Master Training now grants +2 Health and +1 Fatigue. In my view, this is the single most important change. Super-charged fatigue is the reason that high-level Heroes can clear floors in a single round. The extra health makes them more resilient, but doesn't help them in clearing the monsters on that all-important first turn. The Overlord has to do more damage, but at least he has tools with which he CAN do damage since some monsters are much more likely to survive the initial onslaught.

2. Bosses stay bosses. All named monsters that receive an HP and armor bonus multiply that bonus by 2 at Silver level and 3 at Gold level. Thus, the Master Beastman with +8 wounds and +1 armor is actually (+16, +2) at Silver and (+24, +3) at Gold.

3. 'Other' Equipment. Reduce the number of 'Other' items each Hero may equip from 2 to 1. Increase backpack space by 1 for each Hero. One of the main reasons the Heroes are so strong in RtL is that, unlike in 'normal' Descent, they are going to get ALL the relevant treasure from every treasure deck. What's more, the Other items carry over and retain their usefulness well into the next campaign level. This change reduces the power increase the Heroes can get from their equipment alone, and at the same time mitigates the Overlord's otherwise overpowering need to use Crushing Blow to keep the Heroes' equipment in check.

4. Humanoids. All Humanoid monsters receive a cumulative +1 Armor per upgrade over their printed stats (i.e. +1 armor for Silver Humanoids, +2 for Gold and +3 for Diamond). At Silver and Gold level, the complete lack of speed and range for humanoids means they are sitting ducks. Their ONLY chance is to have the Heroes come at them and have them be tough enough to survive the initial onslaught. It's a basic rule of move-and-attack strategy games that slow, point-blank-range-only units NEED to be tough. Right now, the extra +1 armor that the Diamond Ogre gets over the Diamond Naga does not in any way account for the fact that the naga moves 6 instead of 3, does way more damage and can reliably attack at range 6 or more.

5. Avatar battle changes, listed in another thread.

6. Various card number tweaks. Actually these aren't strictly pro-Overlord, as many weaker Hero skills (and Treachery cards) are buffed. The biggest changes are that Telekinesis doesn't affect Named monsters and Rapid Fire can only be used at most twice per Hero turn.

Pro-Hero changes

Definition: "Defending Tamalir" The Heroes are said to be "Defending Tamalir" if they are fighting a Lieutenant at Tamalir AND there is at least one siege token on Tamalir.

1. When Defending Tamalir, the Heroes draw 3-choose-1 locations for the Lieutenant battle. This ensures that at this critical battle, the Heroes don't get one of the few super-deadly maps (Snowy Woods or Box Canyon) and have a better chance of drawing a map that just destroys the Lieutenant.

2. When Defending Tamalir, all Heroes have their max Fatigue temporarily increased by 2 for the duration of the battle.

Those are the changes with which I've been experimenting.

Finally, as to Feats. I haven't actually incorporated these into a game yet, but I've certainly been thinking about it. Rather than getting them for free from Glyphs, I like the sound of the following rule.

Acquiring Feats in RtL: A Hero may draw 1 feat if he performs a VISIT action at a town Training Ground. A Hero may draw up to his maximum Feat hand size if he declares a TRAIN action at a town Training Ground (in lieu of doing any training). A Hero may not acquire feats via a RESTOCK action.

I like both the thematic and mechanical aspects of this rule, as it creates more tension as to how the Heroes use their valuable time in town.

laxrulz777 said:

I don't know if you've followed the thread on the Sorcerer King's keep, but people are saying it's neigh impossible for the overlord, even with said upgrades, due to the nature of the mirrors. That aside, I can't really comment, not having experienced it first hand.

For me, balance is about challenge and enjoyment. When you're playing a "pure" RPG, it's about keeping the game challenging for the players but not impossible. It's also above and beyond all else about making sure that everyone playing is having fun. Descent, even with the RtL expansion, isn't a "pure" RPG, but I believe the goals are still similar, with the big difference being that the overlord wants the opportunity to win.

The tone I've been reading from people concerning the final battles is that it's simply no challenge to the players, and no fun at all for the overlord. And when it comes to me as a hero, I'd be bored if there was no challenge. As the overlord, while I don't want my job to be too easy, I also want to think that if I'm at the top of my game, and so are the heroes, that it'll be close! I don't want to think that razing Tamalir is my only viable strategy in the game, and that time is against me... In most fantasy settings time is against the heroes. In standard Descent, and also on any particular dungeon level in RtL, this is the theme as well. If the heroes waste time, the overlord accumulates more threat, and possibly even more conquest points. This means that the heroes are pressured to do the most they can in the least amount of time.

All in all, a balanced RtL campaign should, in my opinion, be tense on both sides. If you don't feel the game could go either way, it's a lot less fun. It's like playing a video game with cheat codes. Granted, some people like the cheat codes, and some people even depend on them. But for me, if a game becomes too easy, it loses all its fun.

The_Immortal, those are really nice changes. I printed them out, to have them handy when the time is right to use them