Please add The Laughing Storm to the Restricted to prevent the ridiculous Laughing Storm-Val combo ASAP before Regionals begin.

LaughingTree said:

LaughingTree said:

+2

+3

.

+4

Whatever happened to "let's see how a card really affects the meta for a while before taking measures"?

Saturnine said:

-1

:-)

LaughingTree said:

-1

This fragile 2 card combo is far more easily disrupted than just running Pyromancer's Cache for Bara. Val is much easier to deal with for every house than Cache and given Bara has the best access to Kings I think Cache is going to be the more stable draw engine.

Given that half of the, as yet untried at a major tournament, combo is on the restricted list already, is it really that big a deal?

If it turns out that having the two cards in the deck is so game-breakingly good that it needs to be outlawed entirely, then so be it. But given that to even have a chance of running it a player needs to forgo all of the other Restricted goodness (and in a Bara deck that's big things like the Fury and Narrow Escape) shouldn't it at least be given its day in the sun?

Also, good call on the Cache stuff. I will laugh so freaking hard that it will give me facial cramps if the true scourge of the tournament scene becomes Laughing Storm + Cache, as opposed to the Laughing Val combo that people have been having palpitations over for the last few months.

Just curious, if we don't immediately add TLS to the list, what exactly is Bara "foregoing" at the moment? Is the choice right now basically between Val and Fury?

If this question sounds loaded, I don't mean for it to be. It seems to me that every house except Targ and Bara has a *hard* decision to make about what they want to run (with Lanni and Martell having the hardest). I'm just wondering what people think is the hardest decision/trade off for Bara players to make. (Also, don't mean to imply that Bara players need a hard decision like everyone else...maybe the *right* answer is that everyone else has a tough decision to make, but Bara's isn't very hard?)

FYI...please don't say Val vs. Cache. That's not a real decision...both are good sources of draw, and playing one over the other is as much a deck building choice (or more so) than a real "trade off."

I'd say Narrow Escape is just as attractive of an option for alot of Bara decks as any other card on the Restricted list. Of the 4 houses who don't have specific cards on the list I wouldn't say any of them have a much harder decision than the others though

IS it April Fools; late? you guys are kidding right?

Baratheon has to gvie up Narrow Escape to run Val - TLS. the ability to come back from stupid Valar is way, wya more important than getting a draw engine going. TLS is House baratehon only - you gusy woudl specifically eb hating on oen House.

with a card that isn't even out yet.

The Fury plot is a consideration as well - but a distant second. Its really, really irritating to see peopel calling for retsriction fo a card taht isn't even out yet and that probably will not be sued in the combo that everyone points to as the problem all that foetn. Val is teh third chocie for Baratheon off the restricted list. At best. cache might even be a better buy.

Thsi is why aggro players have so little symapthy for control players. we jsut deal with all your myrida control effects. Aggro gets one ro two decent carsd and immediately control players start whining - and really never stop.

Narrow Escape, kids. Val is hardly ever going to be the chocie over Narrow Escape.

Stag Lord said:

I wasn't running Narrow Escape in any of my Bara Rush decks even before the restricted list. However, I had a Bara Wildling deck that was using NE. Since I expect more Bara players to run rush (as opposed to Asshai, Wildling, Maester, etc, etc), I don't think they mind losing NE. I'd venture to say most of the Bara rush decks weren't using it anyways.

Stag Lord said:

See Venomous Blade. Not that I disagree with VB being on the list.

I hate Narrow Escape out of Bara personally. I don't want my characters hitting the dead pile and losing all that power. I want dupes to save them.

The Fury is a tough choice for Bara. Initiative with Vigilant works nicely, and being able to take control of a character with power on it for the win is always nice.

I'd probably still go with Val. Fragile? Yes. But dupes work wonders. For a rush deck, being able to spend 2 gold for a card that gets me 3 cards a turn with TLS out is better than 3 gold for Pyromancer's Cache. I haven't tried it out yet though.

I've been playing with 3x TLS and 3x Val for a while in my rush deck. I've had them both in play every game I can remember, and find that hitting that 3 card draw just once or twice has been enough to keep the deck going. Have I been incredibly lucky so far? Perhaps.

And I am definitely for letting TLS see pay before making any decisions on it.

LoneWanderer said:

The difference is Cache does not combo with TLS the way TLS + Val combo together. TLS + Val is a guaranteed 3 cards per turn draw. Val is already considered one of the best draw engines in ANY card game even with her drawback and TLS completely eliminates that drawback. TLS + Val can draw 3 cards per turn in Marshalling and then use both cards in challenges if needed. Cache + TLS is onyl a guarantee 1 card per turn (or maybe 3 cards per 2 turns). it simply doesn't have the same potent synergy. Either way, if TLS is restricted neither will become a problem (and its not like Bara needs extra help at this point in the LCG). And just to add that Val is vulnerable only to character kill (not just control). Cache is vulnerable both to attachment control and location control.

I do not buy the whole Narrow Escape argument since most of the Baras best renown characters are already Noble Crest and Power of Blood x2 (plus all the other protect for Bara Lords like dupes and bodyguard) protects them extremely well in every game I've ever played against Bara Rush. Bara renown rush with the Bara brothers does not need Narrow Escape to protect them at all.

Anyway I said my peace and will not post further as I made my opinions known...cheers =)

If TLS isn't restricted, I WILL be playing 3X him, 3X Val, 3X Retreat (yes, Retreat), and probably 1-3 of the chick that puts dead cards in the discard.

It is that good of an engine, combo'd with good cards on their own (well, a couple of average ones in Retreat and the chick).

Now that I have told 1/5th of my deck to all my Regional opponents...

+1 (obviously)

Yeah - you lose the renown when the characters hit the dead pile - but its way more improtant that you get them back and sustain the pressure. Bara has had access to dupes and saves since core set came out and they still couldn't keep characters on the board. Even Power of Blood only protects three of Baratheon's stable.

Not only does Narrow gimp Valar, but it gives you one shot recursion - potentially three times a game. You need to keep those gusy in play - even if you lose a couple of power. Its way more important than getting the Val = TLS things et up (six cards in your deck, by the way, that don't help the rush).

Its a serious dilemma for Baratheon. And we absolutely should wait until after Regionals for crying out loud.

LaughingTree said:

Being vulnerable to character control is much worse than being vulnerable to both location and attachment control, character control is much more common than other control (outside of Targ).

As far as Bara needing help, what major tournaments have they been winning? Perhaps I missed it but I'm having a hard time thinking of any. From what I've just looked through I can't find where they have even made top 2.

@rings: You are really going to devote 12 cards out of your deck to a stabilizing a draw engine and you think it is a bad thing that this works?

Stag Lord said:

Wait, wait, wait.... ~Who the hell is going to play that combo in Aggro?

But seriously, I've been thinking of it as a control build from day one.

LaughingTree said:

I know. That is precisely why I was saying that I'd find it hilarious if it was Cache that ended up making Baratheon into the tournament destroying NPE house that some posters here seem to imagine it is about to become.

Y'know, because it would be funny if it wasn't the dreaded combo which everybody has been talking/speculating about on this forum for months which birthed the juggernaut, but was in fact a once-banned card that didn't combo with anything in particular and which nobody ever expected to be reintroduced into the meta again, ever.

If anything is going to turn Bara into a Tourny destroying NPE it is going to be Heir to the Iron Throne , Val will have nothing to do with it.

Darksbane said:

Bara won the Kublacon joust tourney last year, but that's all I can think of outside of melee.

I just don't understand why people are less upset about Martell and Lannister having such great draw engines, and when Baratheon gets a fragile combo draw engine there is immediate call to restrict TLS. Yes, this guy is great. He's promo Queen of Thrones x10 (or whatever). And the two cards make a great draw engine for Baratheon. Let them have it, until such time as it proves to be totally OP. After all, they will still have to play the cards they can, whcih may mean playing a card earlier than they would like.

I would rather see this community work at breaking the combo down instead of asking for it to be removed before we see how it plays out.

Gotta say, based on my experience, I haven't seen NE in a ton of the fastest Bara builds (those the DC meta uses to playtest its decks against, or some of those I've lost to on OCTGN). I've played against Greg's Bara though, and NE is brutal in that, but that deck isn't fast either...unless a round 6 win is considered fast

Honestly, I guess I see in theory why NE is outstanding for Bara, but whenever I've played against it, I've been more than happy to let the Bara players get their guys back after all the power and attachments are gone. Or in cases where they're losing 3-4 of their power characters, discarding my hand of 5-6 cards is often worth essentially ensuring that the Bara player has no chance at winning, even if it takes me an extra 1-2 rounds to fill my hand back up. As an opponent, I'm going to lose a lot more games to ultra-tight Bara decks with more power claim/standing effects than to something with NE.

All this with a grain of salt of course...I don't know what's been most successful in every meta. I just asked the question because as good as NE is, I didn't see it as an integral card to most Bara decks (though I of course know it is to some). If others really find NE that great in Bara, then cool...seems like Bara players might be making a real trade off. (I honestly just don't see the decision as hard as it is for Lanni, Martell, or Stark....again, not that it should be or anything.)

Deathjester26 said:

Also won the last OCTGN Tourney we had, if memory serves correctly.