Questions about Shadow Soul

By Noodle2977, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Card reads:

This familiar is granted by the “Shadow Soul” Subterfuge skill card. The Shadow Soul’s speed is 5 and it has the Flying ability. The Shadow Soul cannot end it’s movement in the same space as another figure, nor can figures end their movement in the same space as the Shadow Soul. At the start of its owner’s turn, the Shadow Soul’s owner may either:

A) Swap places with the Shadow Soul,
B) Move the Shadow Soul to an empty space adjacent to
the owner, or
C) Do nothing with the Shadow Soul.
The owner then receives his normal turn, including movement, even if he swapped places with the Shadow Soul.

Is the sequence therefore as below?
1) At start of turn, swap places etc per the card.
2) Player takes his hero’s turn.
3) Player then moves Shadow Soul up to 5 spaces including the Flying.


Alternatively is the Shadow Soul’s movement etc used in order to enact B) above?

Also, if the player uses A) above can I assume that he is entering an empty space and can therefore be Trapped (Spiked Pit etc)?

Lastly, as Shadow Soul has Flying – what happens if it ends it’s movement on a rubble space & next turn the hero swap places with it (assuming the hero doesn’t have Acrobat or similar)?

None of the heroes in our current campaign has the skill yet but one of the players is thinking about it.

Cheers

Shadow Soul is one of the best Familiars in the game IMO, especially for tanks/melee Heroes.

As for movement, its the sequence that you put up. You do that before the Hero's turn, and Shadow Soul moves his 5 after the Hero is done as per the rules for Familiars.

I can't give you an absolute answer on the trap thing, since I'm not really positive. My inclination would be say yes you can but I don't have anything to back that up with.

Flying creatures can't end their movement in a rubble space so that answers the question for you :-) From the rulebook:

Fly: Figures with the Fly ability may move through enemy figures and obstacles as if they weren’t there. However, flying figures cannot end their movement in a space containing another figure or an obstacle that blocks movement. A flying figure may end its turn in a space containing an obstacle that inflicts damage without effect.

So no ending movement on rubble spaces.

Most traps would not be playable I think. You need to check the wording of the trap.

The Hero 'swaps places' with the shadow soul. He does not 'enter' or 'move' onto the square (in effect, he was already there, thats his soul in the space!) and most of the 'space' traps have an entry or move trigger.

Corbon said:

Most traps would not be playable I think. You need to check the wording of the trap.

The Hero 'swaps places' with the shadow soul. He does not 'enter' or 'move' onto the square (in effect, he was already there, thats his soul in the space!) and most of the 'space' traps have an entry or move trigger.

I would tend to agree, but I've just never been 100% sure. Its an instantenous exhange of places, so its never really empty or they don't really "move" in the manner which most trap cards require.

I would tend to disagree: the swap mechanism, however it functions, still results in a hero changing spaces. I don't believe the Shadow Soul swap prevents traps of its own merits, partially because it doesn't explicitly say so, and partially because it complicates movement rules to have the Shadow Soul swap be a special way of entering spaces (since there are no other ways to enter a space that don't count as "entering a space"). This could stand to be asked...

Just thought I'd add one little point before it comes up in your games... When I was originally using the Shadow Soul I was swapping with him when he was standing on a glyph so I could go to town in the same turn. In the latest FAQ they clarify that this can't be done. Going to town replaces your hero's turn.

I know this isn't really related to the questions you asked, but thought it was important to mention.

All in all, though, Shadow Soul is an indespensable skill, especially to slow characters.

Thundercles said:

I would tend to disagree: the swap mechanism, however it functions, still results in a hero changing spaces. I don't believe the Shadow Soul swap prevents traps of its own merits, partially because it doesn't explicitly say so, and partially because it complicates movement rules to have the Shadow Soul swap be a special way of entering spaces (since there are no other ways to enter a space that don't count as "entering a space"). This could stand to be asked...

It doesn't so much 'prevent' traps as side step their trigger. The space is in fact 'entered' its just that the act of 'entering' the space is done by a Marker (the Shadow Soul) not a figure.

Depending on the wording of the trap you may be able to play the trap when teh Marker enters the space, remembering of course that Familiars cannot be harmed...

Corbon said:

Thundercles said:

I would tend to disagree: the swap mechanism, however it functions, still results in a hero changing spaces. I don't believe the Shadow Soul swap prevents traps of its own merits, partially because it doesn't explicitly say so, and partially because it complicates movement rules to have the Shadow Soul swap be a special way of entering spaces (since there are no other ways to enter a space that don't count as "entering a space"). This could stand to be asked...

It doesn't so much 'prevent' traps as side step their trigger. The space is in fact 'entered' its just that the act of 'entering' the space is done by a Marker (the Shadow Soul) not a figure.

Depending on the wording of the trap you may be able to play the trap when teh Marker enters the space, remembering of course that Familiars cannot be harmed...

The main question seems to be: Is a space with a familar on it considered empty for traps?

With Shadow Soul, you're "Swapping places" and not moving into Shadow Soul's space. It does not require movement points to be spent, and it is not done as a part of a normal movement. The space was not empty, but occupied by Shadow Soul, just as it would be if a hero were to move through Shadow Soul's space.

If the wording was "Hero enters a space" then there might be an argument. And while it makes a certain amount of logical sense that the hero might step on a tripwire or a pressure plate where Shadow Soul passed etherially through it, the rules simply do not support it.

On the other hand, it is MOST fun to open a spiked pit under the feet of mister teleporting wizard (forget his name ATM) when he spends all 5 of his move to teleport ;-)

Personally I hope that the development team FAQs Shadow Soul to make it possible to trap the hero when (s)he swaps, but I don't believe the rules currently support it.

I'm just not convinced that swapping is a special kind of way to enter a space. Entering a space is basically being in a space you weren't before, even if you didn't expend movement points; for example, after getting hit with a crushing block, a hero is susceptible to another Trap - Space card even though the figure was "placed" (not moved) in this new space without expending movement points. When you swap with the Shadow Soul, I guess it could be considered an non-empty space, but I believe that both Hero and Shadow Soul are removed from their original spaces before placing them in their new ones, making it a (technically) empty space (this is the weak point of my thinking, if you're looking for one). I'm mostly devil's advocating: I can see the opposing arguments and am still on the fence about the whole issue. Unless someone has decisive evidence (hint: what I've read so far isn't decisive "enough" for me), I'd say we should just ask FFG.

Im with Thundercles here. But mainly because of the word "enter" (Dont get your "you take them both of the map before you replace them") part.

If a figure is in a space, how did it get there? It "entered" it. "Entering" is in no way linked to spending movementpoints or doing it voluntarily or the likes. The word enter only means that you start/begin to be at a (defined) place. Without entering the place its impossible to be at the place.

Therefor I firmly believe thats not the problem. The problem is: Is the space you entered an EMPTY space?

Yes!

FAQ:

Q: What, exactly, is an empty space?
A: An empty space [...] may contain [...], familiar, [...]

So I definatelly will play it that way and I also firmly believe that it is supported by the rules.

Not to argue with the faq, but their definition would allow you to drop a crushing block on a space with a glyph or unopened chest. Now that doesn't exactly seem kosher to me...

Osaka said:

Not to argue with the faq, but their definition would allow you to drop a crushing block on a space with a glyph or unopened chest. Now that doesn't exactly seem kosher to me...

In case more evidence was needed that the FAQ is borked on this issue:

On page 6...
Q. What, exactly, is an empty space?
A. An empty space is a space devoid of ball obstacles and figures... the sole exception is that corrupted terrain does not, in its own right, make a space non-empty.

On page 7...
Q. Is corrupted terrain an obstacle? Can the overlord play trap cards on it?
A. Corrupted terrain is an obstacle. As such, the overlord may not play most trap cards on it since a space with corrupted terrain is not an "empty" space.

So, yeah, in addition to the fact that the definition given for "empty space" is probably unworkable, the FAQ actually directly contradicts itself on the very next page.

Hopefully this will be clarified in the next faq. To ME, empty space means EMPTY. In other words, no objects, no props, no familiars, no critters... Just a blank space on the board. Since the faq contradicts itself, I'm inclined to go by my definition until something less ambiguous comes along.

Empty means different things at different times. Otherwise you can't finish your turn in a tree, pit or any other obstacle or prop:

"Figures ... must end their movement in an empty space." - JITD P9.