Pose Mundane brings Silver Twilight Collector into play - with token or not?

By Nico Deluxe, in CoC Rules Discussion

Pose Mundane says:

Play during your Operations phase. Action: Choose and destroy a Monster or Creature character. Then, put a OotST character into play from your hand.

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Silver Twilight Collector says:

Silver Twilight Collector gains © for each success token on it.
Forced Response: After a Monster or Creature character is destroyed, place a success token on Silver Twilight Collector

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Now, if a player uses Pose Mundane to destroy a Monster or Creature and then to bring a Silver Twilight Collector into play, does that Silver Twilight Collector get a success token for the Monster or Creature that just was destroyed by Pose Mundane?

Nico Deluxe said:

Now, if a player uses Pose Mundane to destroy a Monster or Creature and then to bring a Silver Twilight Collector into play, does that Silver Twilight Collector get a success token for the Monster or Creature that just was destroyed by Pose Mundane?

No.

The effect completely resolves before the next effect takes place.

In this case, the Silver twilight collector would be put into play and since it wasn't in play before Pose Mundane resolved, it does not get a token.

I have a differing opinion actually...

Pose Mundane is played. The target is destroyed, then the Silver Twilight Collector enters play. That card action is fully resolved.

Next, the response window opens up, and STC's forced response triggers.

Or are we saying that the response window for the target leaving play only exists before the "Then put ..." part of the action triggers? I could see that, except it would mean that cards like Dreamlands Fanatic would have to have Disrupt timing. So there definitely has to be a response window to the character leaving play after the Pose Mundane has resolved. And since that window is there, I don't see why STC wouldn't trigger.

I checked the FAQ and I couldnt find anything about the card having to have been in play when the effect happens. It'd just have to be in play when the response window is open I think.

Yeah, I see your point.

But I read the following:

(v1.0) Working Effects
In general, Support and Character card effects
can only be triggered (or affect the game) when
the card is in play.

To mean that the Silver Twilight collector would have to already be in play the glean the token.

So I think it is not that cut and dried, for sure. There is that small window there that is causing me to second guess my stance.

Yeah I agree it does open some vagueness, but I think the way to look at it is that the response window opens, and then it's only things that are in play when that window opens that are allowed to trigger. So, for example, if some other effect in the response window of Pose Mundane somehow brouth STC into play, I'd say that STC definitely can't trigger off of the PM window.

Maybe we can sneak this question into the current FAQ request :)

Thanks for the answers, but since there was no definate solution I sent it to "rules questions", let's see what FFG will say.

And here is the official response by Damon Stone:

No, Silver Twilight Collector could not gain a success token. A Forced Response can be thought of as a Passive Effect with a game trigger. Because Forced Responses take place immediately, whenever the circumstance of their text would indicate (as detailed in the FAQ under Actions, Disrupts and Responses), the Silver Twilight Collector misses its window of opportunity to respond. The key indicator is that Pose Mundane's destroy a Monster or Creature character and the put into play play effect are separated by the word "Then." This means the character destroyed leaves play completely, before Silver Twilight Collector is in play. This is the point where all Disrupts, Passives, and Forced Responses which involve a card being destroyed or leaving play would initiate, and resolve. After all of those effects had been dealt with then the Silver Twilight Collector comes into play. Its window for a Forced Response has passed. Now that the Pose Mundane has completely resolved players have an opportunity to use Response effects to anything that happened in the Pose Mundane's Action Window Once all players have passed consecutively on responses, players may now take actions as normal.

The reply was super quick and elaborate, thank you very much!

Hm, that also kind of answers the Repo Man Infernal Obsession question. The take control effect on IO is a passive based on attachment to a character. As soon as it is removed the passive no longer grants control of the character so it immediately reverts to the owners control. Then you would proceed with the attaching the IO to a character on your side of the board, the Repo Man and returned character would be legal targets.

Nico Deluxe said:

And here is the official response by Damon Stone:

No, Silver Twilight Collector could not gain a success token. A Forced Response can be thought of as a Passive Effect with a game trigger. Because Forced Responses take place immediately, whenever the circumstance of their text would indicate (as detailed in the FAQ under Actions, Disrupts and Responses), the Silver Twilight Collector misses its window of opportunity to respond. The key indicator is that Pose Mundane's destroy a Monster or Creature character and the put into play play effect are separated by the word "Then." This means the character destroyed leaves play completely, before Silver Twilight Collector is in play. This is the point where all Disrupts, Passives, and Forced Responses which involve a card being destroyed or leaving play would initiate, and resolve. After all of those effects had been dealt with then the Silver Twilight Collector comes into play. Its window for a Forced Response has passed. Now that the Pose Mundane has completely resolved players have an opportunity to use Response effects to anything that happened in the Pose Mundane's Action Window Once all players have passed consecutively on responses, players may now take actions as normal.

The reply was super quick and elaborate, thank you very much!

Indeed. It was a very well articulated response that Damon gave.