My players are good, strategists and planners, comes from over 20 years of gaming experience in various genres. I am playing OL against the four of them. I chose the "Eternal Night" plot and am using the Beastman Lord Avatar. End of game one I did well eneogh (lucky draw on the last dungeon) and got six hero kills giving me 20 CT after the first dungeon, a little less than the players who got lucky in the CT dept. but unlucky in the Copper Chest Draws. Eight weeks have passed (the players just ended their 8th week with a visit in Dawnsmoor). Heroes are Grey Ker, Nanok, Runemaster Thorn & Silhouette. (note: even though I listed my turns second in the weeks below, they did go off when appropriate in the order set under the rules, upgrades and Lt moves first)

Week one: (no encounters) Heroes do all 3 levels of Starfall Forest (#4 The Bridge of Death, #8 The Warrens, #42 The Secret Garden) ending in Tamalir, I move a Lt to Vynelvale OL CT 20/Hero CT 23 (6 hero deaths, all but one in #42)

Week two: Heroes train in Skill and Dice Upgrades, I move Lt to Guardian Hills OL CT 21/Hero CT 23

Week three: (no encounters) Heroes move to and do all 3 levels of Thelsvan Highway (#7 The Graveyard, #32 Up & Down, #5 The Barracks) ending there, I move Lt to Mountains of Despair. OL CT 22/Hero CT 54

Week four: one encounter (cakewalk for heroes) ends with visit in Riverwatch, I move Lt to Smokblue Hills OL CT 23/Hero CT 54

At this point the Heroes payed attention to the Lt's moves and realized I was heading for Dawnsmoor to Raze it, realizing they needed the boat for water trails to stop me they bought it, their plan, go to Moonglow Marsh, complete it and then come back in Tamilir and catch my Lt before he could do much to siege. Realizing their tactic I decided to wait keeping him on Smokblue hills to support the Moonglow Marsh dungeon.

Week five: Heroes train in Skill upgrades and buy their first rumor ($2000 reward Belly of the Beast), Lt waits. OL CT 24/Hero CT 54

Week six: one encounter (cakewalked). Heroes using boat move to Moonglow Marsh and cakewalk it (#12 The Throne Room, #2 Alchemists Lab, #11 The Mine), all three levels ending their turn in Tamalir, even with a Lts rienforcement of "Doom" in play... "powerful bonus" my @$$ though it was nice to have the extra power card... I guess... OL CT 25, Hero CT 74

Week seven: Heroes train in Dice and Skill upgrades, I move Lt to Bitter Downs and upgrade Humanoid monster class to Silver (first upgrade) Heroes also decide at this point to buy the two trails upgrade so they can catch Lts.

Week eight: (no encounters) Heroes move to and do all three levels of Blackwing Swamp (which is their Rumor dungeon location) on the way to intercept the Lt at Dawnsmoor (#17 Bag of Bones, #33 Down the Drain, and Rumor #2 Belly of the Beast)... and almost cakewalk it. Even with the silver upgrade in Humanoid (which was the largest creature percentage in the last level of the dungeon). I managed to get one Hero death (Thorn for 2 and I didn't even know that I'd have killed him when I attacked, kinda ignore him since he's only 2 CT for the OL unless he's easily vulnerable, rarely...). Players end with a visit week in Dawnsmoor (Thorn complaining loudly about nothing here for his character). I move Lt to Misty Plains.

Week nine: I retreat Lt to Bitter Downs... not sure what to do at this point, the Heroes plan on trying to kill the Lt before going to Olmric's Hut (though I do have a strategy to just flee him back to Applewood Forest my OL Avatar Keep when the players attempt to attack him if things look like they'll go badly for him). The current final tally of CT stands at Heroes 99/ OL 29 with 4 left over to spend (two turns till I can add a second Lt unless I can squeeze in a lucky kill...) The heroes now have the boat and two trails upgrades, 8000 group gold left all have bumped either two skills or dice or a mix, some three. The lowest personal XP they have is 49 on Nanok, Grey has 64 and The other two stand even at 69.

Currently what's killing me is the Copper Item Cone of Fire. In three of the dungeons it has been used to wipe out large groups of forces pretty much ending at least two dungeon levels in under fifteen mins each, from setup to teardown... If I counter it by spreading my creatures out as much and as far as possible they either don't have the movement to attack a Hero or only one or two can each of my turns, if I group more than two together I get flamed. Am I at a point now where all I can hope is that the players pull Humanoid strong encounters or Humanoid heavy dungeons where all three levels are lucky eneogh to pull Humanoid heavy levels... Is this the only way I can pull out of this... I plan on fleeing with Sir Alric to my OL keep when he's attacked, then spawning the second Farrow brother and send them both to seige Vynelvale (that way if the players force one to flee at least he respawns one turn away from Vynelvale to keep the seige on the town till it falls. At this point I'm only interested in razing it for the skills I'll cost the Heroes, especially Precision...

So back to my question... how screwed am I?

Are you playing with treachery and the Well of Darkness Expansion? If you are you can purchase one green treachery and pick the card:

Crushing Blow: Play after making a successful attack on a hero (an attack that doesn't miss). Instead of dealing damage to the hero, choose and discard one item the hero is carrying. Pay 4 threat if the item is a shop or copper item, 8 threat if it is a silver item, or 12 threat if it is a gold item. Relics cannot be targeted by this card.

I have all the expansions except the Sea of Blood and the Quest Guide. Sadly "Event" treachery for the Beastman Lord costs 30 CT for each point, I have 4 CT to spend atm, and at this rate it will be another 26 turn "weeks" of play before I can get that point, if I don't upgrade anything else. While it only costs one point to play Crushing Blow, the Heroes will be almost to Gold level, if not already there by the time I buy it if things don't change or even out fast, even one kill a dungeon would be better than this, I don't mind the Heroes winning, but I'd rather they had to work for it than cakewalk from the first dungeon onward. From what I can tell the "Blitz" tactic works about the same, pretty much as long as the Heroes pull a top notch group I've lost. Most dungeons, Thorn clears the chaff and then the other three wipe the Reds and named monsters, I'm usually lucky if I get one or two attacks in a dungeon, and so far that's only been because of the lower cost for me to flip the reinforcement tile, something not that useful considering most of the threat I used to spend on spawns is now always available due to the addition of the reinforcement tile. Even reinforcing a dungeon twice a level on top of the monsters I already get, I'm not able to put up much of a fight at all. Unless the heroes come across something labled as Ironskin and Unstoppable I almost feel like conceding most dungeons to them rather than waste time setting them up.

I'm hating the idea but it sounds like if I want to win I'm going to have to always choose the toughest OL, stick with Eldritch as my main and the Obsidian Shackles as my plot. At this point I'm not sure I'll even get to play one card from my plot. I'm not so much worried about my experience but I'm noticing the other players are kinda getting a little annoyed at not having anything to do since Thorn takes out everything in sight (sometimes even reds) in one hit, or worse if he pulls a battle.

Dungeon level #17 Bag of Bones (starts with named red and six skeletons). I placed the skeletons around the named leader with the plan of moving them into better positions after the heroes first move (grouped monsters, big mistake). I took into account maximum running speeds while placing them for the start of the level (even with fatigue) knowing that only Thorn was at risk, and if he did attack would be left vulnerable. Ping teleports as close as he can reducing distance to 4 movements to flame, plays feat card "fly" (+2 movement) plus 2 fatigue to close the distance, BWOOSH, goodbye all white skeletons, and the red guy has 1 life left, at this point I've already lost the level, even though the red guy will just come to life if they kill him at the start of my turn till they turn in his bonepile to a sarcophagus. The other three move, using fatigue to advance farther and set guard orders. I get one shot, all heroes are full health, I hit Thorn of course, players turn, Furr does one point to the Named, dead, other heroes go for treasure, Thorn declares a run, teleports to the body, picks it up and dumps it in the sarcophagus (after drinking one stamina potion to restore fatigue). I only got to kill him because his search roll on the sarcophagus gave me a Sorcerer to immediately attack him, then it was my turn, and since he was still adjacent I attacked him, killed him (my only two for the level). Turn three doomed Sorcerer, then the next two turns were all movement to get treasure and move to the next level. I didn't even feel like spawning anything, it was the first level I didn't have to turn over my reinforcement marker.

I wouldn't be that worried that I won't have any chance to catch up, but this was after a Silver upgrade in monsters, and the last level was filled with Silver level humanoids... didn't slow them down abit, worse if anything now they don't even come close to death unless luck favors me, and alot of it. This was also the first time in a dungeon I ever got to stack Command from more than one Master Beastman, and I even had to find the rule proving to the Heroes that Command was stackable because they didn't believe it since it has never come up (Red guys die fast and first to the Heroes, they ignore most whites except as attacks of opportunity or if a Battle action will guarantee a double kill barring misses). I came close to killing Nanok for the first time since the first game thanx to that, but then next round, boom, flame attack, followed by a series of Hero Battle attacks and the first area is cleared in one counter attack. I wouldn't have bunched all of the monsters together, but it was the only way I could try to get a kill without getting pinned in hallway fights (perfect terrain for breath against groups).

It wouldn't have been such a big deal... but the last three levels of dungeons, including the rumor were this easy for the Heroes, by the end of it I had one hero so bored from never getting to attack anything and feeling like a treasure/glyph mule that he was dozing off in his chair, and he has the lowest movement in the group. I don't know if I can salvage this, but I'm going to make an effort, though it will be awhile before things turn to balance, I've already given up on my plot, till I have alot more CT coming in, Treachery will have to wait, and now it's between Lts and Avatar upgrades, Lts first, then upgrades, I'm pretty sure at this point they'll make it to the OL Avatar, and if I can't get in at least the Shadow Clone upgrade, I doubt I'll have a chance against them. I just wondered if anyone else has been in a similiar position and if I should play like I might win, or just play to make it at least entertaining for the others (like a GM), if something doesn't swing fast it might as well be a dungeon crawl for the rest of this playing session. If I still have a chance to win, well I'd like to know, I'm **** good with strategy and rarely get caught in the same trap twice, but spreading monsters out... doesn't bode well for damage chances against the heroes.

This is going to sound harsh, but its say this or don't help at all.

Either your group is playing some basic rules wrong somewhere, or you just are too too bad as OL.

There is no way a hero party should be able to consistantly go through all three levels in early copper without a single death. Occasionally, with a lucky draw, yes, but not consistently.

That said, the Beastman Lord is the worst Avatar by some margin and Humanoids are the worst monster type by a wide margin (in RtL).

Corbon said:

Hmm, alters what I gathered from the forums, I heard Humanoids and Eldritch were the more powerful, beast having it's usefulness but only as a Primary if the players. The real kick in the teeth is that my first choice for Avatar was the Demon King, and the Eldritch class as my main. I'm still not sure why I decided to change and I'm sure now it wasn't a good idea at all.

The heroes are using a retreat~hero~thru~to~town~the~moment~that~one~gets~too~low~in~wounds~heal~to~full~strategy. They take the time to heal all wounds, never go thru the portal to the next level till everyone is lined up, use a constant wave of guard orders even if I hold back slowly pinning my monsters back till they can either mass group kill them or if I send them in in little waves they get eaten up by guard orders or I mass rush and face what comes. They save all their guard orders for only reds or those who are any risk, letting little whites hit them with nibbles of damage (very rare they have less than two guard orders up at the end of their turns. My players read every little bit of information they have, plan and strategize right in front of me, call me cheap for holding back, as long as they know they can do it they do, I've checked every move in the most updated FaQ, been doing constant searches for things I'm not sure about and have asked a series of questions recently for things I've not found answer for. The heroes also use their knowledge of the creatures abilities to pick targets, based on abilities they find will put the group at most risk, they know the tricks. Currently Nanok is absorbing most of the damage unless I can get them into more vulnerable positioning (limits on terrain inhibit this).

They wouldn't be so far ahead of me but instead of getting "Treasure" cards when they do treasure searches they are getting an huge influx of potions cash and CT, they are getting the appropriate CT, I recount three times at the end of a week to make sure. They made good use of the "Visit" and "Week" market and potion grabs while at Tamalir for two full week training visits, having characters who didn't train spend a round in the tavern, buying items for other characters, they got the backpack on their first "Visit" to Riverwatch three weeks into the game, and all four of the other items were useful and bought, then spent a week there with one training in "Furr" and one at the Tavern, and one at the Market (mr. backpack), and one at the alchemist, pull five more copper items for the weeks visit, and now I think only two have a storebought item left, and that's Nanok (+1 armor other) and Grey (chainmail) the second tank/ranged. And worse... three of them have pierce, including Nanok. On top of that they are making incredible use of the new "Feat" cards to pull "Hero" level maneuvers, and RtL was their introduction to ToI as well. But I can honestly say, every move they've pulled is legal. This game may have... open ended questions, but most of the time it is a clear and easy to understand set of rules. I originally played things like Pierce wrong, till I came here and read how it worked. Trust me, you guys have been very helpful in clearing up my few errors in understanding, most of it I got right.

Encounters (all of two out of six rolls) were "Kobold swarm" and "Wendigo Pack" neither all that deadly, I got one round of Kobold boosted hits on Nanok (gotta love that 3 movement) made as much use out of my threat as I could to speed up the little buggers (oh my players pay especial attention to how far their enemies can move though I occasionally get them with "Charge" or "Rage". They are choosing max die over range relying on their "skill" and "other" abilities to compensate for things like range and bonuses. I could dig thru their boxes and give a rundown of each character at this point, it's one of the best of the group combinations that can be thrown together from random grabs, amusingly they all got what they were hoping for (though Thorn was hoping more for Landric). Most of them are ex-MMORPG junkies (WoW, Everquest, Starwars Galaxies, all requiring lots of organized planned raiding).

I have come close to killing them on at least two levels of each of the dungeons (usually the last two), but it's close, not perfect, dropping traps on them hitting their weakest with ranged "piercing attacks" most of which hit, but right when the turns about to end, right when I'm down to those last crucial monsters, right when I'm making my last death blows... I roll X's and the heroes get a full round of kills retreating their most wounded hero and taking out all risk (and I do everything I can to try and kill that hero before they get away). I play Darkcharm well (and it's missed half the time I've used it) and often on Nanok (they are getting smarter about not placing any of their figures in range of him), I just havn't been lucky, the rolls that make the difference aren't coming up, though I admit it gives the game a sense of "on the edge of your seat" type play for the Heroes, but the moment they found out that if I made CT they weren't going to take ANY risks, the only player who ever risks themself really is Thorn (really knows how to use magic type characters, and very analytical, making sure to cover all avenues of movement and how much he can do (and they all restock their fatigue asap knowing it's importance.

At this point if I could hit Nanok I could get a Lieutenant, he has a habit of killing all the Master Dark Priests taking threat tokens on himself (currently worth 7 CT I think). And I've come close three or four times, like right down to one single little wound, just that... one little wound. And it's the same with all of them, they have been very lucky, in the amount of gold for training and buying what they need, going to high market cities to take advantage of high market draws (not one treasure card or repeat). The only time useless unpurchased copper items came up and weren't purchased was during their "Restock" week when I pulled the two items for that "weeks" worth of restock, every visit has been crap lol, at least one advantage.

This last dungeon though, since flame came into play everything has taken a drastic swing in the Heroes favor. The player Thorn takes advantage of "Power potions" and his "Fatigue" levels and uses them heavily for movement and "Upgrade dice" when doing his breath attacks. He has been taking perfect advantage of moments when my monsters are bunched (one unwise placement... I really didn't think they could reach and attack, and two hero counter attack turns when my attacks failed and the movement left left them exposed to an all out group kill weapon like breath (drink pot, kill four to six monsters in one hit).

I am working against an incredibly smart group, and they picked this game up fast. For the players in my group other than me who would OL, they would find it the same challenge (though likely easier if they went with Eldritch and a better Avatar) if they took over the OL as I did. They're just used to me playing the bad guys and being a "killer" DM/GM when we play more combative games. I'll see how things progress from here, I can't see that I'm doing much wrong, but gotten one hell of an unlucky streak, I'm just hoping that I start getting kills soon now that I've opened up the Silver catagory, and most of the dungeons and encounters left are the deadlier levels (I put already completed levels of the dungeon in the graveyard box till I go thru the deck, keeps things different). Except for "Throne Room" & "Secret Garden" the levels pulled have all been easy/medium levels.

What you said doesn't sound harsh, it's what I'd think too if I saw this score, hell after my first game, with both myself and the heroes being even I thought "I wonder what they mean by balance issues, looks like both sides will upgrade evenly and the heroes will have a good challenge on their hands." Little did I know. This is our third game session, this last game ran for 10 hours (losing about an hourish to breaks) they went thru 2 dungeons, 2 encounters, 2 visits to two different towns and three training weeks in this one game session, ending on their move to Dawnsmoor which would have been their third visit which they'll do next time we play as the start of their game turn, then they'll spend a "week" to train, then they plan on hitting Olmric's Hut maybe hitting a dungeon or two on the way, I'm hoping that since they are entering red and yellow shield areas the encounters will get a little more deadly. The game took a major turn during this session and I will have to see how it plays out from here.

They are the luckiest...

Edit to Paragraph #5

but the moment they found out that if I made CT I could upgrade, they weren't going to take ANY risks of letting me get any large amounts of CT to use against them after that first dungeon,

I know that sounds like a rant but I'm just trying to cover exactly "why" they are kicking my ass, and it's all legal, they are using what they have to their best advantage and they are using it like pro's.

Well, I was playing something wrong, Undying changed for RtL... I didn't notice that little alteration, I've been playing it the "Vanilla" way, might make a difference in some ways. Nice to have it be a powerful ability for RtL.

One thing that struck me in reading one of your last three posts is that you said

" They save all their guard orders for only reds or those who are any risk, letting little whites hit them with nibbles of damage"

If they are wounded and haven't used the Guard order you know that it is lost right?

Guard

A guard order stays with a hero until removed by one of the following events:

1) the hero takes one or more wounds,

2) the beginning of the hero’s next turn, or

3) the hero uses the order to make an interrupt attack.

I also am at a loss to explain how your heroes can progress through three levels of a dungeon without a single loss while also advancing somewhat slowly and healing. These things take time and allow you to accumulate threat and cards making you more and more dangerous. Time is by far the best weapon that the Overlord has. Every turn that the heroes 'waste' in a particular level gives you more options while using up their limited resources.

So you don't kill them in the first level, spawn once when they are getting ready to leave and see if you can sucker them into staying for an extra turn or two to clean up the monsters.

Watch them plan out their movement and when they overextend or need every last movement point to achieve a goal throw a pit trap or crushing block in their way to make them take another turn to do what they had planned. Thorn enters the space he lands on so hitting him there is a valid target.

Use guerilla tactics with your high move/range creatures like skeletons. Wear them down so that you can hit time harder later.

Shatteredragon said:

Did you also notice that the swarm ability changed as well? It allows for 'boosts' as opposed to just an extra black die. Small change but in certain situations can make a big difference. Only mention it cause you had said you had a bunch of Kobolds around Nanok as one point in time.

dragon76 said:

dragon76 said:

Lol, I should have pointed out, those "nibbles of damage" I didn't mean wounds, it is rare I get thru the armor of the tanks, That was in reference to attacks that require max damage to do one point and rarely if ever get up there. I've had horrible timing on trap draws, similiar on spawn cards, amusingly I get a full spread of power cards no issue, and good ones fast (usually Doom, Brilliant Commander or Trapmaster, occasionally Hordes). Three times I tried to use cards to "kill" a wounded hero, twice I had them killed by feats, in both cases only a pure luck roll would have and did save the Hero before they got damaged and got away. These heroes spend fatigue to drink health potions, they use Stamina potions to insure they have alot of Fatigue when needed, including drinking one with their last fatigue point to refill their fatigue extending their movement further.

A favored tactic, (Thorn 4 fatigue, spend three to move, one to drink stamina potion, four more to move total of seven spaces, battle attack, worse if the hero already has a Power potion on them from a previous turn (advance guard order), then declares a battle action, use power potion on first attack (oh boy breath with upgrades...), upgrade/add five die, first attack, use 3 fatigue to move, one to drink stamina potion, second attack, use four restored fatigue to move back to safety 4 spaces or for four more upgrades to damage die, this followed by three other Heroes ready to back up him putting himself at risk, this is not including his "teleport" ability which enhances this type of attack something aweful if played out right, add a feat card on top of it and the Thorn can wipe a large amount of opponents very suddenly from the board, when the OL wasn't prepared for it). And there is nothing that says this is an illegal attack, same again, if he doesn't drink a stamina potion, they make sure to drink a health potion every round they havn't drunk any other kind the moment they have more than 2 wounds, they don't let wounds accumulate if they can help it. If they take damage they are on top of it. And they are getting potions every Chest loot pull 2 or three a chest, not to mention that several of the dungeons they were in had Potions of choice they could pick up. This is a group that knows how to work any loopholes they can find.

If anything I pointed out above was "illegal" moves I'd love to know, but I can't find fault with just playing... well with what they have.

Also for being the first to offer "advice" which is what I asked for, thanks, I'm hoping I just had a really bad game day, I'm going to have to work ways around their strategies, but a round of power attacks using potions, feats, and stamina, can turn the tide strongly in the Heroes favor, my players know how much these things "increase" their chances of winning and will make use of them in EVERY way possible as long as it's legal according to the rules of the game. They are playing a great game, they use the right cards and combo's at the right times to do some incredible but totally possible moves.

I just loved having the one time breath would have killed three of the heroes, getting the subterfuge feat card that can make the OL miss get played on me. An attack I saved for just that moment and got handed back to me. I'm unused to Feat cards, and they are hitting me hard with sucker punches when I think my tactics are sound.

Oh and thanx for the swarm note, though I'm rereading and comparing all the abilities now side by side in their Vanilla and Advanced versions to see how they changed, the heroes are gonna whine about the change to Undying.

Shatteredragon said:

Not sure where you heard humanoids were any good (maybe in SoB, due to better dungeon design). Although they hit very very hard, good hero players will almost never let you spawn in a location where you can hit the same turn you spawned. Which means humanoids, for all their enormous potential damage, generally do zero actual damage more often than not.
Beasts are by far the best outdoors, and Lt encounters are where the game is actually won and lost, not dungeons.

Shatteredragon said:

Rule check #1: You know glyphs work differently right? The heroes can't often just get back to town when they want to. There will usually be at least one turn of vulnerability.

Rule check #2: If you take damage, you lose your guard order (unused). So those little nibbles of damage are enough to kill guard tactics.

Reality check#1: So what if they call you cheap for holding back. a) Call them cheap x4. They are holding back with Guard orders. b) if you are that easy to goad out of using tactics then you don't deserve the title of Overlord. Instead are officially "Whiny Little Brown-nosed Kitten"

Tactics check #1 If you can't hit them now, holding back and making them come to you is good. While they waste half their actions on Guard orders, you accumulate more resources (cards and threat).

Shatteredragon said:

Rule check#3: Nanok is not allowed to wear armour. Read his card...

Reality Check #2: They trained Furr? That proves they are either not particularly competent, haven't read the Furr rules and FAQ entry, or are deliberately trying to go easy on you. That is a really poor skill choice!
Note: it could well be influenced by their reported tactics, which are actually poor but maybe doing well due to minor rules errors.

Reality check #3: Trust me. You got more wrong than you can possibly imagine. We all do.

Tactics check #2: What they are doing, spending time at Tamalir and making sure they take best advantage of opportunities to equip etc, that is good play - until you 'get going'. Once you have a monster upgrade, the Farrows out and a treachery or two, they can't afford that time a-wasting. Now is the only good time they have unless you screw up and get Lts killed.

Shatteredragon said:

It's not a bad group - Nanok is top-notch and Silhouette or Grey Kerr are very good heroes (though I think both is slight overkill - I'd prefer 2 mages) and Thorn is also not bad (though there are several better options). But it is not that great.

Encounters are generally easy for the heroes, except for one or two. Don't count on getting anything useful from them, and do not buy the upgrade that makes them more likely!

Rules check #4: How many skills did they start with? Only one I hope...

Shatteredragon said:

Yeah, **** happens. Just not that consistently for you not to be doing anything wrong!

Shatteredragon said:

Thats what spiked pits and crushing blocks are for.
But when you are doing one or two little things wrong, everything always seems to snowball, screwing you over thoroughly.

Shatteredragon said:

Rule check #5: one potion per turn right? and it costs an MP to drink as well.

Rule check #6: I know you said they get a lot of potions from chests, but you do realise that the potion limit from Tamalir is for the entire party for an entire week, right? Once those 2 potions have been bought, that is it for the week for everybody. Outside of chests, that is all you get. Potions are a very limited resource for the heroes.

Reality check #4: The copper breath weapon isn't that strong. WY with ~ 1 = damage means average 6 per attack from Thorn. That means he has to spend ftigue and/or a power pot to take down most silver or tough monsters in a single attack.
Just don't bunch (yeah, I know, humanoids suck...)

Shatteredragon said:

The evidence is against them being all that smart - they trained Furr after all. But a few minor rules wrong, and a bit of bad luck and things can go bad very quickly.

I don't know if any of the rules checks I noted are things you are actually doing wrong.
But it only takes a couple of tiny thing that one side is taking advantage of to drastically change things.

Rule check #1: You know glyphs work differently right? The heroes can't often just get back to town when they want to. There will usually be at least one turn of vulnerability.

Yes, and was made to prove it before it was allowed to be played this way.

Rule check #2: If you take damage, you lose your guard order (unused). So those little nibbles of damage are enough to kill guard tactics.

Heh, answered before you also reminded me but thanx for noting. I was refering to damage, not wounds.

Reality check#1: So what if they call you cheap for holding back. a) Call them cheap x4. They are holding back with Guard orders. b) if you are that easy to goad out of using tactics then you don't deserve the title of Overlord. Instead are officially "Whiny Little Brown-nosed Kitten"

Tactics check #1 If you can't hit them now, holding back and making them come to you is good. While they waste half their actions on Guard orders, you accumulate more resources (cards and threat).

LMAO oh I put them down as much as they do me, I hold back exactly for the reason you mention, it does goad them on and the longer they wait the more to my advantage it is, it has also proven to be the most effective tactic damage~wise.

Rule check#3: Nanok is not allowed to wear armour. Read his card...

Ok, this I didn't know applied to "Other" items as well, not just actual "Armor" cards?

Reality Check #2: They trained Furr? That proves they are either not particularly competent, haven't read the Furr rules and FAQ entry, or are deliberately trying to go easy on you. That is a really poor skill choice!
Note: it could well be influenced by their reported tactics, which are actually poor but maybe doing well due to minor rules errors.

The hero (Nanok) who chose this skill in my opinion did waste a skill slot, though in his defense the first time he used Furr with his character it was in conjunction with the Shadow Soul and worked very well in his favor, also the ability to send it thru other monsters to directly attack a named in Vanilla turned out very useful, In RtL he may have just wasted a skill, since after copper it won't be of much use.

Reality check #3: Trust me. You got more wrong than you can possibly imagine. We all do.

Heh, oh yes, first "several" games, and I'm still doing constant rule checks to make sure I know how things work. I got most of it right, the areas I am lacking in are mostly abilities and effects.

Tactics check #2: What they are doing, spending time at Tamalir and making sure they take best advantage of opportunities to equip etc, that is good play - until you 'get going'. Once you have a monster upgrade, the Farrows out and a treachery or two, they can't afford that time a-wasting. Now is the only good time they have unless you screw up and get Lts killed.

Ah so I was right, going for Lts after the Silver upgrade is a good choice, the two remaining Farrows were already my next CT expense, it is good to know that once on the board, in numbers they will be far more effective. I was pretty sure this was the way to go. So they are riding the "gravy train" so to speak, I'll keep that in mind for sure. It is nice to know once things "get going" the pressure will start to build.

Encounters are generally easy for the heroes, except for one or two. Don't count on getting anything useful from them, and do not buy the upgrade that makes them more likely!

Thanks, good to know, I won't waste the XP

Rules check #4: How many skills did they start with? Only one I hope...

One skill 3 feats

Yeah, **** happens. Just not that consistently for you not to be doing anything wrong!

Alot of it is just bad luck, or good plays of Feat cards, or good combo hero actions, working well as a group, I'm going to have to put alot more effort into spreading them out or singling out one and concentrating everything on them.

Thats what spiked pits and crushing blocks are for.
But when you are doing one or two little things wrong, everything always seems to snowball, screwing you over thoroughly.

Trap cards are what I use to "finish off" alot of heroes, sadly I had alot of bad luck in these draws (ie; first chest trap card didn't come up in two dungeons till the last chest was opened, or no doors in dungeons. I love trap cards, they seem to be the equalizer in an OL's hand as an option for attacks. Trust me I make good use of both of these. Yes, it was more of the affect of a snowball rolling down the side of a mountain gaining size and speed fast, but, you were close.

Rule check #5: one potion per turn right? and it costs an MP to drink as well.

Oh I loved this rule change, and implemented it instantly into the game rules. I support it wholeheartedly, my players usually use a move or fatigue to drink a potion every round.

Rule check #6: I know you said they get a lot of potions from chests, but you do realise that the potion limit from Tamalir is for the entire party for an entire week, right? Once those 2 potions have been bought, that is it for the week for everybody. Outside of chests, that is all you get. Potions are a very limited resource for the heroes.

Another rule I was playing wrong, I love this, the heroes are going to whine, and I'll enjoy listening to it, because this might have affected the balance, potions may seem weak, but when not lacking amount it can make the difference. Though that was still 12 potions from town visits and weeks alone, plus about 12 surges if not more from treasure rolls, plus potions from actual levels that provide them, they still come to about 30 potions, with the reduction of the four extra they got during a week visit where two went to the alchemist last game. This will make the biggest difference in dungeons. I can see how this one thing misunderstood can kill game balance fast.

Reality check #4: The copper breath weapon isn't that strong. WY with ~ 1 = damage means average 6 per attack from Thorn. That means he has to spend ftigue and/or a power pot to take down most silver or tough monsters in a single attack.
Just don't bunch (yeah, I know, humanoids suck...)

Read my previous post and you will see an example of how a "Copper" breath can suddenly become devastating. It would be nice to know if anything I mentioned is "illegal".

I don't know if any of the rules checks I noted are things you are actually doing wrong.
But it only takes a couple of tiny thing that one side is taking advantage of to drastically change things

You did note some things I was doing wrong, I will fix them for next game, lol the heroes are gonna hate me after this but it will be worth it if there is an obvious change in game play. I did have that potions question in mind before and it must have fled my mind in the wake of other questions, thanks for reminding me.

The choice of "Furr" was dumb especially now when I consider it in higher levels it will be close to useless except as a "finishing move" type attack, I don't think Nanok noticed this. The fact that they only have seven dungeons "Vanilla" under their belt (levels one and two of the first campaign) and this is our first RtL campaign... I think I see ways to make this a fight for the heroes, finally some help, lol, and some clarifications. I will make good use.

The fact that they only have seven dungeons "Vanilla" under their belt (levels one and two of the first campaign) and this is our first RtL campaign...

This is in the last paragraph and the braketed part should be edited to read: (levels one and two of the first campaign twice, then a continuation on to level five before we switched to RtL)

Rule check#3: Nanok is not allowed to wear armour. Read his card...

Ok, I've looked, Nanok cannot wear armor, all armors in the game are listed as "Armor". There is nothing restricting Nanok from wearing "Other" items, even if they confer an armor bonus since they are not "Armor" but "Other" items. This is how I read it, at most this means Nanok can add +1 armor for Belt of Strength (other available in store) and the "Gold Treasure" Knights Ring which is also an "Other" card and also adds a +1 armor. There is nothing that says he cannot wear these, just that he's not allowed to wear "Armor" which I always took to mean items worn in the "Armor" slot of the character, not the "Other" slots. I would totally love it if this is wrong as OL, but this would relegate a character so many thought of as powerful to a midclass tank with high MP and Fatigue.

Shatteredragon said:

Yeah, this was just me misreading and thinking of Leather armour.

Like I said, we all get things wrong.
It's Ring of Protection . Belt of Strength is +1 damage for melee attacks.

I am wondering how the heros got 31 CT in week three... In the three dungeons levels there are only 20 CT worth of glyphs and leaders +1 CT for exploring the location. There are 3 chests total that could´ve yielded three more CT...

Parathion said:

My mistake, should be:

Starfall Forest 1+6+7+8= 22 CT (8 for leader kills/9 for glyphs/4 from chests/1 for first time on dungeon)

Thelsvan Highway 1+9+5+8= 23 CT (8 for leader kills/12 glyphs/2 chests/1 first time)

1st Encounter 2 CT

2nd Encounter 2 CT

Moonglow Marsh 1+10+5+7= 23 CT (8 for leader kills/12 glyphs/2 chests/1 first time)

Blackwing Swamp 1+6+6+14= 27 CT (8 for leaders/15 glyphs/3 chests/1 frist time)

Total 99 CT

Thanx Corbon, I was hoping that armor mention was wrong, no worries, at least I know if asked by my players, though it's never come up, Nanok is pretty powerful and was meant to be one of the best tanks in the game.

Yeah, **** happens. Just not that consistently for you not to be doing anything wrong!

I have over 20 years of gaming experience which includes board and RPG games that rely heavily on luck and dice. In the first ten years of that it was rare an RPG gaming session lasted less than 12 hours (noon to midnight pretty much every Saturday), at which point we'd watch the weekend late night, adult rated cartoons Aeon Flux, The Maxx lol, a few others).

With all that time of rolling dice (including simple board games like Monopoly, Risk, or any other board game relying on dice luck) I have had and seen others have some amazingly bad streaks, that lasted for hours at a time, if not an entire session.

On the reverse I've seen just as amazing good or great streaks, where every roll is exactly what a person needed in the moment, and can again, last for hours or an entire game session, just like a bad streak. Imagine how bad this is when one side is getting all high rolls and the other all low. **** can happen consistently, it's just rare. Sounds like you've been pretty lucky not to have a run of the worst day of die rolls ever, and I don't wish it on yah, it can ruin an otherwise fun time.

Any game that relies on things like random dice rolls and random card draws, no matter how "balanced" they try to make it, requires an element of "luck" to get a good run of good play, and can go "consistently" in favor for or against you.

It's your groups game, so if you find things are getting unbalanced either towards either side, you might want suggest house rules. Given some of your players are sleeping in their seats, they'd probably welcome them too. Although it sounds like you have made a few rudimentary errors (notably potion purchasing and guard orders), the two things that I would suggest you want to suggest to players that should be removed are Feats and area effect weapons.

I don't use Feats in my game, but I don't much care for them. It's far too easy for a feat to disrupt a well-executed move, especially when you'll probably find that you only got two or three big-hitters in a dungeon - everything else is just noise and disruption. Whilst the same argument can be made for the pit trap screwing the Heroes plan, the players are going onto the Overlord's terrain, not the other way around. They're the burglars, you're just defending your home!

I'm not a big fan of multi-hit weapons such as Blast and Breath. Everything else is pretty much 1-hit, 1 kill, whereas Blast and Breath breaks this rule. IMO the game plays a lot better without most area effect powers. Sure there are Hellhounds, Dragons and Lava Beetles but their pretty rare and - Dragons aside - don't tend to end up killing mutliple characters in one turn.

As for general notes...

Furr is pretty lousy in Copper and gets even worse in Silver and Gold. Nanok is borerline broken in the Advanced campaign, he essentially gets Gold level armour at the Copper level. Many Overlord's banned him or downgraded him when RtL came out. Thankfully this'll become less of an issue as you upgrade, so when you do finally kill him - maybe with a combination of Traps and Dark Charm - all those Curses will come home to roost.

Humanoids are great for damage potential, you just have to spawn them well. Use skeletons to chip away Guard orders before you charge in. Beasts are terrible choice for upgrade because you can almost never spawn them anywhere useful. Eldritch are most populous, though they don't tend to inflict as much damage as Humanoids, but attacking from range increases their chance to live.

Traps should be used to disrupt your players plans. If they are stretching themselves and dropping a pit or a falling block will prevent them from killing your boss or another big hitter like a Master Beastman, go for it. Traps can and should be used for the kill, but they are oftentimes far more useful in leaving the Heroes vulnerable for a counter-attack.

Jake yet again said:

With careful adjustments to my strategies, good draws finally on better dungeon levels, and better luck on die rolls I have finally found things slipping into better balance. I have had Heroes escape by the seat of one wound, but barely, and now that they have to sit longer in town for healing it is easier to break them up abit.

Area affect weaponry was negated by me paying alot more attention to how close monsters stayed to each other at the end of their turns. Nanok may be a hard tank, but any OL that feels the need to remove or nerf him is taking the easy way out, fact is, it is far better that they rely on him since it leaves them open from rear attacks alot, having to have him bottleneck opponents ahead of the group (also he has realized the tactical disaster of choosing Furr). He has picked up Taunt but I now use the other heroes or monsters to block LoS to him to hit weaker characters. A new tactic is to hold a Beastman War Party spawn card in my hand till they leave their flank exposed then hit them right after a heavy all out attack (the cheapness of flipping the reinforcement tile really helps here). The Heroes are doing well, but since my first silver upgrade they are finding it harder to progress as easily.

Trap cards are always saved for hitting severely weakened heroes fleeing to town, well except for Dark Charm. I use them to interfere with moves and force unexpected turns preventing them from progressing too far too fast. As for Feat cards, they make it more fun for the Heroes and I see no reason to really remove them, they can throw a wrench in an OL's strategies but only once in awhile, and several times now they have found themselves without them to fall back on from over using them on one level of a dungeon. Again, an OL that can't compensate for Feats, should pass on the OL hat.

Multi hit weapons annoy me, but not eneogh to change the game just because I don't like the way they are played. All considered I like the challenge of changing my strategies to work better against the heroes, instead of relying one "oh I hate that card, I'll just take it out of the game" I havn't removed the Bear Tattoo from the game (yet) as I havn't found it to be as "powerful" as everyone seems to think it is. I "may" instill a house rule that it doesn't affect Lts but other than that, it really is a waste of a skill slot in my opinion. Probably one of the weakest skills since it's so easy to overrun with numbers or from behind, especially in this game, there are so many ways around it, hell, I don't think one of the monsters with Grapple has ever even caught a hero, not before it died to that heroes first hit, or any of the several to follow moments later. For OL's this ability comes in handy, rarely, for heroes, almost as much so. Telekinesis on the other hand, gone, that one is too powerful.

I have no issues with Humanoids as my main, and once I got the other two "Farrows" out I was able to siege and raze Vynelvale to the ground, they never even managed to train there, and now two Lts are beginning a siege on Riverwatch. The third is reinforcing Bitter Downs, and mostly right now I'm trying to decide if it's just better to raise the silver humanoids to gold level (after this dungeon the game goes silver) or upgrade the Eldritch class to silver, trying to decide which would be more effective. Otherwise the die have been more balanced and while the heroes got a "great" start to their campaign, things are getting harder, and from the looks of it, will get much worse.

If we find anything as a group that we think is too powerful we'll talk about it and alter or remove it as needs, but for now, it's fine the way it is. I just wasn't sure if I could "pull" anything out of such a bad luck start, or if I was screwed till the OL battle. I can effectively fight the Heroes so I can enjoy the game as a fifth player still, instead of giving up and just making it more fun for the rest of them. I'm still a GM when it's more fun than steady losing, I would have just had to change my perception of how I played the rest of the game. But... things are swinging around and in my favor and the Heroes are about to discover just how much of an OL I really am >

Shatteredragon said:

Very good to hear.

Shatteredragon said:

Note that the removal is in fact an official rule in the FAQ, not a house rule.
And yes, the reason it was removed is mostly due to how much it changes Lt fights and possibly some Avatar fights. But especially Lts.

Shatteredragon said:

Note that Master Beastman have Command 2 at gold level, and kobolds hit with Red+Green+Swarm (and Au for masters of course).
Does that help your decision?

Shatteredragon said:

If we find anything as a group that we think is too powerful we'll talk about it and alter or remove it as needs, but for now, it's fine the way it is. I just wasn't sure if I could "pull" anything out of such a bad luck start, or if I was screwed till the OL battle. I can effectively fight the Heroes so I can enjoy the game as a fifth player still, instead of giving up and just making it more fun for the rest of them. I'm still a GM when it's more fun than steady losing, I would have just had to change my perception of how I played the rest of the game. But... things are swinging around and in my favor and the Heroes are about to discover just how much of an OL I really am >

Good job, great attitude!

When we originally set up the game I had been reading a previous FaQ (hadn't realized there was an updated one as it didn't come up first in my searches). Nanok pulled Bear Tattoo and set up his entire character idea and play style around it. Problem for him is it becomes predictable and easy to outmaneuver. It should be noted, I did pull Telekinesis and all the OL cards since I read that FaQ but decided to let Bear Tattoo slide since it had already been played. At first I found it tricky, then it just became something easy to work around. Then I realized except in Lt and Avatar battles it was pretty much a lower class skill. I did bring up the change in FaQ to the group but since that was one card that affected the OL's side of things, we made a kind of tradeoff, and I got the "Boulder Trap" back as an option for later use, though that's awhile away. For this campaign I'm not too worried, things seem to be playing out fine, and since I know that Bear Tattoo was removed because of it's affects on Lts and the OL's Avatar I just negated it's function against them. It still gives it some use against "swarms" but it's nowhere near as powerful once it's affects on Lts and OL's was negated.

Yah, man... I am loving the upgrade to Gold in Humanoid class, I was comparing the differences between advancing the one class, then worrying about the others after, making some super threats, or spreading out the damage increase amongst numbers with a second Silver upgrade, especially since the combination of two Silver classes would increase the current amount of threat sources rather than focusing it on one select class. It's the fact that Gold is cheaper right now that makes me think it's the better way to go first. And yah.. that Command 2 on top of the + to damage the Beastmen get is totally making me take notice, the Kobolds too. A much better upgrade than just Silver was.

With Beastman it's all about the Master Beastman. The Beastmen themselves are pretty vicious and you'll find them **** good rank-n-file enemies for most of the campaign, but the real joy is the master beastman, pumping up everything within 3 squares. He's also a pretty potent attacker, but Command is where it's at.

Jake yet again said:

Stacked Command from multiple Master Beastmen even at Copper level got the attention of the Heroes in my group, eneogh so that I had to prove it was a viable rule. I think for the Humanoid Class, the Master Beastmans bonus on top of the damage bonus for regular Beastmen was some of my better damage rolling nites, that and the Rumor Dungeon they did was filled with Beastmen who had been upgraded to Silver (with the addition of Brilliant Commander there were three Master Beastmen on that level). I think I'm I'll go with Gold Class Humanoids, seems for the moment it will be the better upgrade between Humanoid to Gold and Eldritch to Silver. That and it only takes a corner or two of blocked LoS to bring them out which leaves rearguard party members most vulnerable.

The next dungeon level I pulled is #26 Trial by Fire, first level of the Bitter Downs dungeon (the players are staying close to Olmric's Hut for the Silver Buffs). They'll upgrade to silver after this one (only nine CT away between the two of us). Three leaders, their second battle ever with a Dragon, their first with a Demon. Heh, when they saw three leaders were waiting them for the next game (today) the loudest comment was "Seriously, on the first level of the dungeon?!?!" Sadly this is not to my advantage, having this card come up for the first level would only turn out to be a bonus if the second and third level were just as hard. Not one of my better first level draws, though I won't make it easy on them. This level would have been better as a second or third since by then I'd have the threat and "Power" cards to buff it a little, as well as having extra cards to hit Heroes with at whim. I can only hope some of my early draws are good cards.

I have found it easier to draw the cards for encounters or first/next levels of the dungeon they are going thru when we end a game. That way if there is an encounter or new level I can have it all set up before they show for game. It also gives me time to develop some tactics or stategies based on what I do draw. Doing it in front of them gives them the knowledge of what is coming but also prevents them from thinking I'm "cheating" by drawing a card I want to to use against them. Though currently I am playing with the style "remove dungeon, encounter and outdoor map cards as played till the decks are empty of needed cards". This keeps the game fresh and helps to pull away from getting too repetitive, though some of the "level" cards they pulled would be nice to see come around again now that things are tougher.

There's a good chance our group will be playing today, if not I suspect those of us left might play a game of Tide of Iron which I have added to my Fantasy Flight collections though I have yet to try it out with someone (did some playtesting to learn the rules of the game myself, same as I did with Descent when I first bought it). Worse comes to worse we'll end up just tossing darts, though that's only fun if someone drags along beer. I'm hoping the other two players have the time to swing in today and join us, we seem to be getting in two games of Descent a week (Wed & Sat) and Descent has defineatly livened up our game nites.

Just a quick thought, if I remember correctly in Trial by Fire the runelocked doors OPEN when the master for that area is killed. Something that your heroes may overlook the first time through the dungeon that may be used to your advantage.

Additionally, under RAW I believe that named monsters can open runelocked doors as long as the areas are revealed. As all areas in an RTL Dungeon are considered revealed this can lead to some mischief as well. Having a Master Dragon and a Master Demon in the second area could prove to be a bit much for the heroes as well.