In my mind that would be Electronic Warfare rules. Being able to listen in on the enemy or blocking them with ECM, ECCM, ECCCCCCCCCCM, and so on.

Alex

That sort of thing doesn't happen all that often. Unless it's the Imperium on rebels (rarely the Tau) factions don't really do that. In terms of listening in on the enemies communications anyway.

I don't think Jamming needs any more rules then if you are in range of a jamming device you cannot use what it jams, whether that is vox transmissions or psychic communications.

SomVone said:

But I attribute that to coming from a TT background where this plays no role in the game (mechanics). Now that we have a RPG, the game designers might want to ask themselves if this is an area that could use some more exploration.

Alex

ak-73 said:

IIRC, it's mentioned in Savage Scars that the Imperium during the Damocles Gulf Crusade were wary of the Tau intercepting their Vox transmissions, so it is a known factor in some cases. The Tau also employ an extensive command and control network linking Teams and Cadres of warriors with orbital, airborne or rear echelon commanders and allowing them to fight extremely well-coordinated battles.

We also know from the Tyranid Codex that Raveners can perceive (though not understand) transmissions of that nature, allowing them to locate prey who're using Vox Casters and Micro-beads.

Certainly, the details of long-range communication and electronic warfare are something worth considering - it certainly adds a new angle to the game and adds a wrinkle to the situations a Kill-Team may find themselves in.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I'd make it less elaborate than, say, modern day or near future espionage campaigns but still I'd like to see some rules about it. It's a thing a stumbled across at least twice in the two online campaigns that I am playing for a few weeks now. The Astartes should at least be able to intercept and decypher transmissions from the militaries of most former Imperial planets in the Reach. Or traitor guards, etc.Or at least have serfs specializing in that.

The whole espionage thing is a bit under-developed in 40K. This is part of its unique flavour, okay. But some espionage to complement the militaristic approach would be nice.

Alex

I think in Only in Death in particular of the Gaunt's Ghost series there is a lot of discussion about problems with security on the vox network, and a lot of concern about the protagonists being spyed on. I think they may even mention that they suspect the enemy has decryption codes for the channels they use. In the series in general they also (likely for dramatic reasons) discuss things like em interferance from artillery disrupting mid and long range communication, local weather and warp factors disrupting stuff, etc.

In regards to RPG level of detail in warfare, I don't see why you would not have jamming, spying, and general disruption occuring, especially against Tau and Chaos (at the very least to spy on the human portions of the factions).

Now considering the DW & Marines in general, I'd totally expect them to be participants in this type of warfare, but I wonder just who would be the ones that did it, or if you'd just have a black box that did it for you. The roles the SM elements play (assault, dev, tac, etc.) none of them seem especially keen on understanding the tech of this type of warfare- I don't know what the 'intelligence' branch of the SMs is. In game terms, simply having tactics and tech use would sugest the ability though.

I think the level of detail in the rules would be dependant on the style you're going for- if it's a plot element just hand wave it and have support elements do the dirty work. If you want the Marines to do it, I'd say it would require multiple devices (given the Empire's tech devices are usually single task style, no smartphones or laptops here), and make the penalty to use them work inverse to the req cost, then either use a penalty based on the 'smartness' of the opposing network or have some sort of opposed roll. I do wonder though if some races (noteably the Tau) would use the EM spectrum for their communication at all, and thus neccesitate different devices to interact with different systemts.

Don't see the rules being included in any future sorcebooks (RoB would have been the most logical place for it as far as I can see), but who knows.

The base Wikipedia article on Electronic Warfare (EW) is here. You can branch out from there to your hearts content to get a basic understanding of EW. I can most certainly see a branch of the Departmento Munitorum in the form of the Division Tactica (of which little is known except that is the military intelligence branch) staffed with a mixed of Departmento adepts and Transmechanics seconded from the Adeptus Mechanicus performing this function for the Imperial Guard. A similar setup, but using Chapter Serfs and Transmechanics might work for the Adetptus Astartes. I would suggest developing EW rules, specifically Electronic Attack rules using the rules for Imperial Assets found on page 214 of Rites of Battle.

Charmander said:

Yeah, on further reflection I don't think anyone should have deeper knowledge of electronic warfare except Techmarines and Tech-Priests. Space Marine vox systems (both loyalists and traitors) should probably be near impossible to crack - even for their counterparts. Tau should have varying levels of security, same with the IG.

I don't think though that FFG would create anything but an abstracted rules mechanism for it to not detract from the main thing - epic combat action. And I am not so pessimistic about it being included - I expect a sourcebook with more chapters next "season." Perhaps electronic warfare will fit in the overall theme of the supplement.

And while we're on the RoB: another thing they have missed is a talent for Librarians to cross-train. In fact it would have been a better incentive for the Epistolary specialty. In fact I might do a complete re-write so that the Deathwatch Epistolary is the Librarian that can pick psy powers from all "spell lists" (yeah, played too much rolemaster). And yeah entering the speciality (or buying the psy powers) would have to be so expensive that it does not become the no-brainer choice.

As you can see there is still plenty of material left for a "Deathwatch Companion II."

Alex

i would prefer to keep DW in "hit him with your power club where it hurts" theme, moving it to "star trek pdeudo science ECM prattle" is bad idea, technology is to arcane in wh40k setting. And yes u are right such electronic warfare should be left to techmarines and techadepts.

besides i would much more prefer DH 2nd edition (fixed bugs) or DW 2nd edition that another broken sourcebook.

boruta666 said:

Well some rules regarding EW would be nice though. As I said, it does not need to be elaborate.

boruta666 said:

Not very realistic option right now though. I wouldn't expect DW 2E before DH and RT 2E.

Alex

I agree that it's a bit abstract for your average DW group. Certainly the effects can be interesting, jammed or intercepted coms, codes or encoding devices.

Saying that I was knocking up a alt rank for Techpriest to be a Transmechanic that included stuff like this, basically because it'sall they do, but that was more focused on small scale private operations than military stuff. And the inclusion of Xeno races using their own tech makes it more difficult.

Electronic warfare was mentioned in the 2nd edition Imperial Guard Codex, where it had a role in whether you got access to supporting bombardments (rather oddly the write up seemed to suggest that the main interference they had to cut through was their own). Other than that there has been very little mention of it in the table top game.

Personally I would regard it as so niche interest that it should just be something a GM determines themselves and even then should have very simple rules. Have relevant pieces of equipment and have characters make Tech-Use checks. If you are successful you jam/listen into communications. Obviously if something is encoded then you have another issue to deal with but again just make it some kind of skill check or (for more involved things) a prelonged investigation skill project. No need for complicated rules.

I think it's a bit niche and probably left to the GM to decide. Because good ELINT/COMINT is such a game-changer in a scenario, it's good for the GM to decide more by fiat than by dice. I don't particularly see it as anything that grunt marines would be dabbling with, either. Maybe the tech-marines with specialist gear, but that's getting even more niche.

Things that I'd like to see:

More 'monster' stats for Orcs, Eldar, Necrons, et al.

Good plot/meta-plot ideas that expand the Jerico Reach environment, but which offer options and suggestions, rather than casting a meta-plot in stone.

THE REST OF THE LOYALIST FIRST FOUNDING CHAPTERS.

A big errata for Imperial Fists Chapter.

Some articulate, well written scenarios that aren't set on rail-road tracks and assume a degree of intelligence on the behalf of the players. Heck; if FFG could pull a classic hard-backed campaign out of their pockets to rival some of the classic WFRP 1e stuff, that would be amazing.

A couple of pages of new relics. But nothing over-board. Maybe more misc wargear.

A distinct armour history table(s) for Termi suits and artificer armour, as the last of the four tables is pretty much non-applicable to these armours.

A constant stream of updates on the Living Errata. It wouldn't take much work.

Deathwatch needs three things, in my opinion.

1) Loot tables. I've noticed that my group gets a little bored with just choosing what's in the book before a mission. How about a list of relics, special weapons with slightly altered stats and abilities that Space Marines can find and keep as signature items.

2) Modules. When you go to the game store and look for Pathfinder materials, there's a few big hard cover books and about 10-15 paperback modules with lots of new ways to add to your campaign. They're cheap, simple and help extend the life of a good game.

3) DM Guide. There is no Game Master's guide for Deathwatch. I'm the only person in my city (I Think) that can run Deathwatch...kind of sucks because I want to play too.

Siranui said:

I Second that, if I could third it and forth it I would.

I think for once this game has most of the gear that would be used normally with the obvious expect of chapter specific stuff and custom relics.

Kilbourne said:

What would a GM's guide include exactly? All the rules you need are included in the core rulebook. Many of the rest of the books are intended as GM's resources (the up coming Mark of Xenos, for example. A book on enemies is mostly for a Gm rather than the players) but there is genuinely very little I can think of that a GM's guide would offer. None of the 40k rpg series are really games where you can build an encounter to a forumla (unlike D&D 4th). Enemy construction is basically a matter of "give them what they need to be what they are meant to be" (and we are about to get Mark of Xenos). I can't think of any extra advice they can really give on mission construction than what they already give.

What is needed are the rest of the Primogenitor Chapters. And a massive re-writing and clarification of Squad mode/Solo mode and the various abilities.

And something I want for the 40k rpg series as a whole (but is actually least useful for Deathwatch) is rules for disease. To me it looks very much like something that Black Industries intended to do, much like the expanded poison rules (rather than just the Toxic rule for weapons) which come in the Dark Heresy GM's toolkit. They dropped the line and now it is something FFG still haven't produced, resulting in things like the very boring ruling that Plaguebearers' swords just count as Toxic, rather than having the "25% chance of being infected".

Siranui said:

The first founding chapters are a must have.

The other thing I'd like to see is an alternate rank for some kind of scout specialist. The scout gear is pretty well covered, but skills and special abilities that would be ideal for stealthy character are not easily obtainable where they exist at all. Even the most anti-stealth chapters still have scouts, and there are some chapters which use stealth and hit and run tactics preferably (Raven Guard, etc.). It is something that can be home brewed relatively easily but it would be nice to see something official.

Along that same line, it would be good to have some non-deathwatch marine rules for scouts. I have played in games that are specifically non-deathwatch, as well as games where the players start out as scouts. Reverse engineering from DW and house ruling the rest isn't too difficult, but again, since this is a what would we like to see thread, that's something I'd like to see.

What I would like to see, in order of importance:

More Xenos! Mark of the Xenos should help with this a lot.

More Chapters! First Founding and popular offshoots.

More Adventures! Good examples of how to have non-combat role-playing encounters mixed in with your combat missions.

Mass Combat! Expanding and improving on the assets from Rites of Battle and mass combat from the Rogue Trader books (Frozen Reaches, Battlefleet Koronus).

More Vehicles! Although Only War for DH may satisfy my desire for more IG vehicles (Leman Russ, Baneblades, etc)

deinol said:

I agree with most of that, but I would drop "More Chapters" to the bottom of the list (mainly because my players have already chosen their Chapters).

I'm looking foward to Mark of the Xenos, but I'm worried that the bulk of it will be devoted to xenos (Orks, Eldar) that already have stats available from Creatures Anathema and Into The Storm. What I really want to see are more new aliens, ones with minor kingdoms among the stars, or purely nomadic ones; there is no shortage of info on the Tabletop races, i.m.o. Oh, and I'd also like to see more Beasts native to the worlds of the setting. Not every planetary random encounter should be with an enemy patrol...

what DW needs in my eyes is alittle more attention for the specalist like scriptors, techmarines & apothecatries.

-A greater variety of psi powers and a framework to "construct" own psy powers and a closer look of the role scriptors play in normal chapters and their changed role in the DW. more psycic equipment and methods to controll and improve psycic capabilities.

-Rules or ideas for the techmarines "daily" work if not on a mission and sensefull rules for conversion/modification and construction of equipment and wargear, bionics...

-A closer look at the apothecaries struggel to keep the bodys of their battle brothers working as intended, rules for more and usefull chemicals, rules for shorttime "overriding" the bordes of an astartes body with help of chemicals with fitting drawbacks like adicctions ect. and a closer look at the critical system for astartes and the reactions of their enhanced body. (for example sus-an membrance is allmost useless cause there are not crits on the table that knock you unconscious...)

Vendettar said:

For now I'd be content if there was a mechanism to learn powers from other chapters. As I had said, this is what the DW Epistolary should have been all about.

Vendettar said:

Yep and xeno tech research.

Vendettar said:

Not so sure about that. But I'd like to use this occasion to bring up the cool Apo use somebody else posted: their GM made the KT's Apothecary look up crits and read them out aloud and stuff. Reduces the GM's workload and conveys a bit the role of the speciality. I like.

Alex

You know, the most recent Mark of the Xenos preview sure has a lot of White Scars quotes in it.

Almost makes me wonder if they'll be included in it as well, doesn't make sense other than just something to take up some more room, and I'm hardly complaining. Just some speculation (and hope here, I want my Space Mongols and would totally play one if I get into a game, since, well, I'm a Mongolist RL. Tsagaan Sorvii ikh sonirholtoi bain!)

Fingers crossed! (Honestly, the other First Founders do at least have some obvious options in Rites - other than the lack of Stealth Armor for the Raven Guard. But there's Stealth stuff for Raven Guard, Signature Weapon Stuff for Salamanders, and Mechanicum ties and Cyber stuff for Iron Hands... now, all are not total solutions, but at least some structure. Unlike the poor Vehicle Riding White Scars!)

What space marine vehicle do White Scars use that aren't in Rites of Battle? They're rules for bikes, trikes, predators, land speeders, rhinos, razorbacks and land raiders. What are we missing? [i want all the IG vehicles, but I'm betting they'll be in Only War for DH.]

It's not the Vehicles missing. It's any sort of flavorful Chapter advances and abilities that key off of vehicles! These exist for the other three (Or rather, things that work like their chapter works), but the White Scars getting bonuses in Vehicles? Nada. Which was just messed up in the book that basically added vehicles, they'd have fit better than the Fists in Rites, IMHO.