Hi,

I have two questions:

1) Feint action is opposed WS test. Do you add during that test bonuses from quality of the weapon, additional +10 for balanced weapon (as the person is trying to parry) or other factors like outnumbering in combat or you just test pure opposed WS test?

2) When Acolyte is fighting with a sword and has in secound hand weapon with defensive attribute (+15 to parry, -10 to attack) like Siglite just for parrying and is not using it for attacking is it count as fighting with 2 weapons or with only one.

In the book it is written that "...each test mede to attack with the weapons takes -20 penalty..."

_Kai_ said:

1) I have no idea, not enough of a rules-munchkin to know . I would rule that it is just a straight opposed WS-test, for simplicitys sake.

2) It gives -10 in addition to the penalty for fighting with two weapons, so attacks with the sigilite would be at -30.

At least that´s how I think the rules should be read.

2) is the easier one: The penalty for the offhand applies when you attack with the secondary weapon. Otherwise, people using a shield would feel mighty silly - get +15 for a Defensive instrument and lose 20 for your offhand. Right. Ruleswise, this is clarified on page 197, Two-weapon-fighting, though the page is lacking a 'not' in an important place. Still, it's pretty clear that "The weapon skill test is not an attack and therefore it does suffer the standard penalty for attacks made using your secondary hand" is not quite what was meant to be written.

1) is unknown, as far as I know. A case could be made for straight WS rolls, for only letting the weapon attributes like Defensive count or for using both weapon quality and attributes.

Thanks folks for your answers so far.

Cifer said:

Ok. In this case it's always wise to have secound blade or shield for parry.

Cifer said:

Yep, there is no answer in rules for that. Other opposed tests are taking into account other factors eg stealth suite in testing concealment etc. I think that in this case house rules should be created: you take WS + weapon quality factor vs WS + weapon quality factor + ballanced/ defensive (if applicable).

Other factors should no be taken into account because feinting means how skilled you are (all together with quality of weapon) and if you cheated your opponent or not. In this case ballanced/ defensive factor should be counted.

Ok. In this case it's always wise to have secound blade or shield for parry.

...unless you're wielding a two-handed weapon or prefer a pistol.

2. Has been answered correctly. A second blade or shield for parry is good, unless of course you're primary weapon is a Balanced, in which case only the shield is better.

3. The rules are silent on this but here is my take: Yes, appropriate circumstantial modifiers should apply. Outnumbering (easier to feint if your opponent is already distracted), Stunned (redundant since he can't defend anyway), weapon quality should apply to attack (feint) only, Balanced/Unbalanced etc. to defense only.

This makes sense to me, but it wouldn't unbalance the game to make it unmodified WS tests instead, although parrying will be much harder as a result, since the agressor needs to have at least a successful test to have a chance to Feint properly.

i rule that if your are fighting with 2 weapons you are going to take all the penalties for dual-wield, it doesn't matter if you only defend with one hand and attack with the other, this because the biggest problem in fighting with 2 weapons is the coordination needed to move indipendently your arms and still connect parries and strikes, more so if your enemy is dual wielding too.

if you try to spar with some of your friends with some melee weapon you will quickly notice how hard is to fight dual wielding, this is why historically only one style of swordplay is recognized as a dual weapon style (Stile Fiorentino -Florence Style-).

said this using a shield (not a buckler) is completely different: a shield gives acutally cover and when you parry with it you have a huge surfrace to connect and still you actually duck under the shield, a shield is even easier to use for attack since you actually slam it against the target not trying to hit specific locations and more for shock value than for real dmg (closing spaces, knockgin back or knocking down, blinding your target and so on), infact fighting with a shield is actually very easy (easiest than 2 handed, dual wield and einhander) and the most effective "style" that can easly beat everything else.

for this reason i rule that when you fight with a shield you do not get 2 wield penalties neither for attack or defense, rulewise attacking with a shield is pretty much pointless but i would give bonuses for certain manouvers if needed.

for weapon qualities i rule that a well crafted weapon give bonuses in the overall combat, so you can use its bonus both attacking and parrying.

_Kai_ said:

Weapon's quality counts, because it states +5 or +10 to WS, without any specific case (like to parry or when making an attack).

All bonus that work the same also count, of course.

Whereas bonus that specifically apply only on parry or attack can't be applied in this case, because, by RAW, Feint is neither an attack, no a parry.

_Kai_ said:

No, he doesn't.

1) The Rule book only says that Weapon Craftsmanship bonuses only apply to the attack roll. So no luck on the Bonus to Feint. Surprisingly in the "Combat circumstances" section of "Playing the Game" Anything that gives a bonus or peanlty to your "Weapon Skill Tests" should count. But nothing that gives a bonus to attack rolls. For example:

Feinting with your offhand? assuming that you choose a hand wouldn't take a penalty, But Feinting on high ground or in darkness would be subject to bonuses or penalties. And for your example specifically ganging up does count.

Because this isn't an attack, it's a test of skill.

2) The errata says that:

"If you do not have the Two Weapon Wielder talent and you wield
two weapons at the same time, you can use a Full Action to make a
single attack with each weapon. However, you suffer a –20 to the
attack roll with the weapon in your dominant hand and –40 with
the weapon in your off hand."

You only take the penalties for "attacking" with two weapons when you spend a full action to make a single attack with each weapon. Otherwise you are just attacking with a weapon like normal. Otherwise if I had I been holding anything in the other hand I would suffer penalties for dual weilding with an improvised weapon in one hand.... Which of course would be dumb.

Keeping a sword or sheild (or any weapon that is defensive or ballanced) in your "off hand" is a good idea because the peanalties to dual wielding only apply on the attack. But only if your combined WS and Bonus (from the weapon) is better then your dodge.

Elohiem_Militant said:

Untill now I haven't noticed that weapon craftmanship bonus for melee apply only to attack rolls... Good to know

In this case other factors (terrain, outnumbering etc) should be counted but WS bonusses from quality of the weapon and from special weapon abilities (like balanced) do not count in this case. Sounds resonable for me.